No it doesn't. It makes it more dangerous. This is exactly the problem. I don't understand what awd does or how it acts or what masking a problem is but its better.

Because you don't feel the front or rear kick out hard as you would a fwd or rwd car respectively you have a false sense of increased grip. You don't have any more, you are still sliding off the road sideways but you see no rotation or total loss of all steering so the problem is masked. Your not in a better situation, you are not holding the road better, you just think you are.

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No it doesn't. It makes it more dangerous. This is exactly the problem. I don't understand what awd does or how it acts or what masking a problem is but its better.

Because you don't feel the front or rear kick out hard as you would a fwd or rwd car respectively you have a false sense of increased grip. You don't have any more, you are still sliding off the road sideways but you see no rotation or total loss of all steering so the problem is masked. Your not in a better situation, you are not holding the road better, you just think you are.
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So all those rally race teams are just kidding themselves? lol

Seriously though... Assuming the knowledge, behaviors and skills of some uniformly apply to all is what economists would call a fallacy of composition. AWD is no more dangerous then a RWD or FWD car, unless you falsely believe that AWD does things that it clearly does not. That is a problem of ignorance not an inherent problem with AWD systems.

The feel of an AWD car reaching it's limits is not quite the "on/off" switch you describe. No it will not feel quite like either a RWD or FWD car reaching it's limits but it isn't quite all or nothing.. Although just like with FWD and RWD the margin for error is decreased in the rain.

 

Yeah exactly, rally. Totally the same as daily driving. You also never see them crash, its so rare to see a wrc car go flying off the side of the road.

It is the on off switch I describe because the limit of your tires traction is the limit. Period. I don't care if you have 75 wheels with 2 wheel drive or 75 wheel drive once you meet the traction limit of those tires you are screwed. Because you can't determine what the limit is in an awd because the lack of dramatic oversteer doesn't mean it's increased.

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Yeah exactly, rally. Totally the same as daily driving. You also never see them crash, its so rare to see a wrc car go flying off the side of the road.

It is the on off switch I describe because the limit of your tires traction is the limit. Period. I don't care if you have 75 wheels with 2 wheel drive or 75 wheel drive once you meet the traction limit of those tires you are screwed. Because you can't determine what the limit is in an awd because the lack of dramatic oversteer doesn't mean it's increased.

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Those Rally teams are so silly. They wouldn't crash so much if they just had RWD or FWD. lol

All this begs the question... Why do you own an AWD car?

 

Now I'm nostalgic! I'll never forget Toivonen in the last RWD car, the 037, at a meet/greet. Not a hint of diva even though he was among the half dozen fastest men on the planet at the time.

The brakes were all full rear and the car would come unglued something fierce whenever he'd either tap them or even lift off but he did either so rarely even for tourist ridealongs.

Good days.

 

Are you insane or just arguing a point to argue? I own an awd car because I wanted something different. The car is fairly cheap for what you get, and I've wanted a hatch for some time. It also helps they cars are plentiful and not Ford.

There is little correlation between a race car and your daily driver and you would do well to remember that.

Do you know why wrc drivers ebrake corners so much? Let me tell you, its not because the superb tight handling that sucks them into the apex.

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Are you insane or just arguing a point to argue? I own an awd car because I wanted something different. The car is fairly cheap for what you get, and I've wanted a hatch for some time. It also helps they cars are plentiful and not Ford.

There is little correlation between a race car and your daily driver and you would do well to remember that.

Do you know why wrc drivers ebrake corners so much? Let me tell you, its not because the superb tight handling that sucks them into the apex.

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Questing my sanity is a little too close to a personal attack. Please refrain from that.
Or should I say "you would do well to remember that..." lol


Stating you purposely bought a heavier, less efficient econobox that as you seem to still claim offers no advantages (even though you kinda already admitted some advantages) ostensibly because it was merely "different" and simultaneously "plentiful", strains the bounds of credulity.. But it is your story not mine so I will take you at your word.


No need for straw-men...
I didn't claim AWD offers superior handling. I didn't claim that race cars = daily drivers. Merely that it is an empirical fact that rally teams switched to AWD cars because they offer some advantages for driving the wheels. Particularly when operating on surfaces other than dry clean pavement. While it may not be a direct comparison.. it certainly seems pertinent to the conversation at hand when someone is claiming that AWD offers no advantages whatsoever.

 

Let's be realistic: AWD has been banned in any venue where the sanctioning body did not want to see AWD cars dominate. This includes F1.

There is no better way to driving wheels. The only room for improvement is in the control of AWD and the number of wheels -- ergo, F1 limited the cars to RWD and only 4 wheels.

 

They offer advantage in launch. They come out of the corner under full power in a straight line. That's the advantage. Forward propulsion. They slide through corners because awd understeer terribly unless a yaw control system is used. It is the nature of having any power at the front.

The car is different, I've spent a lifetime owning jeep, I've also owned a BMW and vw in there. This is a far cry different than what ive owned and they are readily available. Had I never owned a vw before, I may have purchased a gti, but owning one vw was more than enough for me. The next super common turbo 4 hatch I could readily find was a wrx.

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They offer advantage in launch. They come out of the corner under full power in a straight line. That's the advantage. Forward propulsion. They slide through corners because awd understeer terribly unless a yaw control system is used. It is the nature of having any power at the front.

The car is different, I've spent a lifetime owning jeep, I've also owned a BMW and vw in there. This is a far cry different than what ive owned and they are readily available. Had I never owned a vw before, I may have purchased a gti, but owning one vw was more than enough for me. The next super common turbo 4 hatch I could readily find was a wrx.

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:thumbup:

 

I skimmed the posts. We had our first snowfall tonight. I'm on stock BRZ tires. My rx8 on hankook summer tires would handle better. If you don't have good tires. It doesn't matter what engine layout or how advanced an awd system is. I can hardly drive the car right now. It's dangerous to drive it. And it's terrifying. Tires make the difference. Not which wheels have power

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In my opinion . . . which hasn't really changed in four pages of posts . . .

1. A good, experienced driver is the most important factor when it comes to staying on the road with inclement driving conditions.

2. Right up there, maybe even being at the same level of being a good, experienced driver, is having the proper tires for the conditions (i.e. summer tires with snow = bad, winter tires in the summer = bad).

3. That said there is a definite advantage to AWD and 4WD with inclement driving conditions . . . but only to a certain point . . . too many folks think AWD/4WD = invincibility in the snow . . . after the first snow storm or two some folks realize too late that this is not the case.

 

agreed.

That was a fun read.

 

Ay yay a 6 year bump... [emoji17]

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Look at me go, I was a dickhead then too.

 

On topic with this thread.. the Dunlop sportmaxx tires that came with my subie... they couldn't help the best driver in the world when it comes to driving on snow with those.. omg they were HORRIBLE! Rocking sottozero 3's now.. soooo much better! So yeah, what tires you run, makes a huge difference

 

they couldn't help the best driver in the world when it comes to driving on snow with those.. omg they were HORRIBLE!

Because the OEM tires are SUMMER TIRES meaning they are only rated for 10deg C to 45deg C. Snow is out of the question.

Shame on you for even trying...

 

Lol, tires can be expensive! I got em as soon as I could 😅

 

Consequently this is the first year since 2010 that I haven't switched to my winter tires.

It's not that the temperature isn't low enough and we just got 12" of snow. Because of COVID-19, I'm not going anywhere and I'm not traveling (normally I travel 50-75% of the time for work). We've just been taking my wife's car on the occasion that we need to go somewhere.

I have been good about taking the STI out on rare occasion to "keep things loose." Man... summer tires in low temperatures is sketch af.

 

Our big brained engineer drives his camaro ss daily on summers then complains about how hard it is to get to work on time to do our covid screenings. Power thinker that guy

 

Lmao, yeah, summer tires are definitely a bad idea if you plan to do any driving in snow, at that point even awd can't save you

 

this video gives an idea of the Subaru AWD, it's old but trusting that the AWD will cover all your mistakes isn't something that will happen but with it, under a uncontrolled situation, it will certainly help you reestablish control, maybe not fully but it certainly helps.

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I'll challenge any Subaru awd system to follow my jeep.

 

Lol, that would be interesting 😄

 

It would be. True 4wd, not awd. 4:1 low range with 4:10 gearing with torsen lsd front and rear plus front and rear lockers.

 

I'm just always dubious of the awd capability tests by manufacturers. Every one of them do the same damn tests with different results always favoring their brand.

Kind of like jeeps "trail rated" we did the rubicon crap. Like no crap, you can take anything down the rubicon trail if you use the obstacle bypasses.

 

Yessir.

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