Wow, this is exactly what I needed to see. ::] Thanks, man.

Can you recommend some starting points? Looks like when I get my coilovers on next month I'll be getting everything set to the recommended specs you mentioned except camber, which I'll probably go as low as I can in the front and about -1.0 in the rear.

 

For a good "street" setup, camber in the front from -1.0 - -1.5 (achieved w/ the oem bolts) and camber in the rear from-1.0 (must have camber bolts/plates to achieve this) to oem -1.3, w/ 0 toe is a very good all-around setup.

If autox/track days start entering the mix then increasing front camber via plates should be considered, as increasing caster.

Toe I would only change if you know exactly what you want and only after trying 0 first,

Big Sky

 

I want to do this but now I've heard that there's a possibility of "tramlining"? And I live in CO where there's lots of nasty roads..

 

The best way to visualize what Big Sky is talking about with caster/camber is to visualize the body of the car rolling when entering a high speed corner. During entry of the corner the weight shifts forward on the outside wheel. The goal of having a large neg. camber is that when the weights shifts onto the wheel, the tire would be close to parallel to the road surface (even though when standing still, it won't be parallel since it will lean inwards to the car - neg camber). Caster effects the car when turning as you can see it adds camber to the wheel when the wheel is turned when cornering. What looks like a slammed car standing still, will even out just right when entering high speed cornerers as long as the alignment is setup properly.

EDIT: Toe is important to certain mid engine RWD cars like the Acura NSX and Toyota MR2. Imagine that these cars can be finicky, twitchy, and may spin out if not careful. To combat this the engineers dialed in some "toe in" in the rear so that the wheels actually spin on an inward to the car angle instead of parallel to the direction of travel of the car. What this in effect does is make it more difficult to get the back tires to slide because they are constantly fighting against it due to their direction of rotation.

 

Sticky this, or just add it to the tech reference?

 

:thumbup: Nice post. I was actually confused on lots of that stuff before reading it. Thanks.

 

good writeup, and i am guilty of PMing you asking all of this about a year ago .
one question... is toe-in a positive or negative number?
bryan

 

if you want to keep your front tires for more than a year i would not run -1.0 camber.

 

if you want to keep your front tires for more than a year i would not run -1.0 camber.

thats incorrect, -1.0 degree is really not all that much and you will have very minimal wear because of it. in fact you may have more wear on the outside of your front tires still, depending on how hard you push your car in the corners.
there are many other factors that contribute to tire wear before you ever need to consider a moderate -1.0 degree of camber.
bryan

 

if you want to keep your front tires for more than a year i would not run -1.0 camber.

I'd have to disagree w/ this- I've run as much as -2.2 camber w/ no ill effects- still out wearing my outers faster than inner. It's toe that will eat tires, 0 toe and you can run quite a lot of camber w/ no ill effects- especially as low as -1.0.

I just retired a set of P Zero Nero's w/ four track days and probably close to 100 auotx runs, 20,000 miles and two years (spring->fall)- the minimum camber I ran w/ those tires was -1.5. I got just about the same out of my previous T1S's- same camber.

Camber (neg that is) is your friend .

Big Sky

 

i ran -.8 camber and approx 0 toe and it ate the inside of my tires up. i don't use my car at the track. i know negative camber upfront is good, i ran -1.3 on my honda and it didn't effect my tires that badly. i burned them off from driving hard before the inside wear was an issue.

 

i ran -.8 camber and approx 0 toe and it ate the inside of my tires up. i don't use my car at the track. i know negative camber upfront is good, i ran -1.3 on my honda and it didn't effect my tires that badly. i burned them off from driving hard before the inside wear was an issue.

It's defintiely in the realm of possibilities, but that's not the normal experience most have- it's possible the toe wasn't as close to 0 as it should have been????

It's possible different tires will react differently to different camber too.

 

I guess I've got another question. Is there a cost effective way to play around with my alignment? With adjustable sway bars and struts and whatnot, it's as simple as turning this or readjusting that, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't afford to go get an alignment more than a couple times.

 

I guess I've got another question. Is there a cost effective way to play around with my alignment? With adjustable sway bars and struts and whatnot, it's as simple as turning this or readjusting that, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't afford to go get an alignment more than a couple times.

get a friend who has a shop with an alignment rack.

i think toe was at 1/16 toe out on both sides when you put it back on the rack.

 

I guess I've got another question. Is there a cost effective way to play around with my alignment? With adjustable sway bars and struts and whatnot, it's as simple as turning this or readjusting that, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't afford to go get an alignment more than a couple times.

There are tools you can get and do your own alignments- you'll need something to measure camber and something to measure toe (toe will change when you change camber)- most of the bigger race parts outfits sell alignment bits. The actual changing of settings you can do w/ hand tools upper eccentric bolt on front strut for camber, front tie rod ends for front toe, rear lateral links for rear toe)- it's the accuracy of the measurements that are key.

Big Sky

 

i just bought a new toy/tool that will help u to do your own alignments, its called a caster/camber guage i got mine from www.longacreracing.com was $130 and it has a magnet u so u can stick it to ur wheel it has four levels in it that will tell u ur caster and camber readings heres a pic

 

Nice- they also make toe plates as well. Would be advantageous (especially a tinkerer) to do your own alignments.

 

Do you guys reccommened or what do you think of the Hochkis rear alighnment kit, is it over kill or would the rear alighnment bolts you can get be better? I want to be able to get my alighnment and handling perfect for my driving ( street and hard ). I have seen the Hochkis for 350.00 they come both the 4 lower control bars, is it worth it to be able to dial in the suspension in the rear exactaly were you want it?

Sorry I'm starting to get a little confused with this whole alighnment thing, so any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Ian

 

Do you guys reccommened or what do you think of the Hochkis rear alighnment kit, is it over kill or would the rear alighnment bolts you can get be better? I want to be able to get my alighnment and handling perfect for my driving ( street and hard ). I have seen the Hochkis for 350.00 they come both the 4 lower control bars, is it worth it to be able to dial in the suspension in the rear exactaly were you want it?

Sorry I'm starting to get a little confused with this whole alighnment thing, so any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Ian

Sounds like adj lateral links. They are nice, but for most camber bolts in the rear will suffice. If you experimenting alot w/ camber/toe in the rear- adj links make sense, if you just want to get to a good setting and forget- camber bolts for the rear.

 

Thank you thats exactly what I wanted to hear. Now which ones do you reccommend I get, I know they are ruffly around 15-30 bucks but is one better than another?

Again thanks for the help, Ian

 

i recently signed up for a 3 year, unlimited alignment deal at National Tire and Battery, which is a national chain--it was $140 but they have a $20 coupon out which maybe you can find on their website.
my car is lowered and i had it set to custom specs and they were cool with it all. although the guy who did my alignment wasnt a pro, he did a decent job and i'm sure he'll get better with the more chances i give him to practice .
its a great option for me since i will probably be playing with height as well as camber adjustments through the summer.
bryan

 

Thank you thats exactly what I wanted to hear. Now which ones do you reccommend I get, I know they are ruffly around 15-30 bucks but is one better than another?

Again thanks for the help, Ian

I used the Whiteline ones, can't speak to the others.

 

great summary Big Sky.

To add to the discussion, what are teh benefits of corner weighing when you have aftermarket coilovers?

I just had the tein flex installed and heard corner weighing is a good idea.

thanks.

 

Corner weighting is beneficial (you must have ride height adjustability to do it) as it balances your chassis- some compare it to a chair w/ four legs- you want them balanced.

Essentially your evening out the cross weights- you do this by changing the ride heights incrementally (assuming your very close to the ride height you want already) and reweighing. Your not trying to get the front and rear balanced ie 50:50- can't be done w/ our cars, rather the weight of the front right X the left rear = front left X the rigth rear. This is done w/ the driver's weight (co- driver as well if you use one) and the normal weight of fuel, etc.

Quick example (3,000 lb car for example) left front weighs 1000 lbs, right front 800 lbs, left rear 600 lbs, right rear 600 lbs

total weight on front tires 1800 lbs, total weight on rear tires 1200 lbs- total weight 3,000 lbs.

percent weight on front 60%
percent weight on rear 40%

total weight on right tires 800+600 = 1400 lbs
total weight on left tires 1000 +600= 1600 lbs

now we compute the ideal weight for each tire
- right front 60 X 1400/ 100 = 840
- right rear 40 X 1400/100 = 560
- left front 60 X 1600 = 960
- left rear 40 X 1600 = 640

if you multipy left front X right rear = 537600
now right front X left rear=537600

You'll notice that we changed each tire weight by 40lbs (up or down) and we "did" this by carefully rasing/lowering ride heights at each corner.

Big Sky

 

OK...I understand what's involved now. Thanks.

I'm guessing that this is almost purely for the autoXer, since in most scenarios, you won't have consistent gas tank weight and passenger weight and what nots in the car.

Would it be accurate to say that the gains from something like that for a mainly street driven car would be insignificant?

 

I would say it's much more important to get ride heights accurate as well as a good alignment, corner weighting for a street driven car is probably overkill.