Road tunes and dyno tunes are simply two different methods of getting the same job done. Where results are shown basically instantly on the dyno, the road tune process takes a bit longer.
The dyno tune is a bit safer since you are in a controlled environment, and the car is stationary, whereas with a road tune, it's just like it sounds, you're out on the road and in order to get accurate data, you will have to break laws at some point.

Results with a dyno tune are graphed out before you instantly. If you log a road tune you can extrapolate the HP and Tq. numbers, but it's not necessarily measured, it's calculated.

Both can get great results if you have the right tuner, it's just a matter of preference and a matter of availability and tuner resources.

 

Road tunes and dyno tunes are simply two different methods of getting the same job done. Where results are shown basically instantly on the dyno, the road tune process takes a bit longer.
The dyno tune is a bit safer since you are in a controlled environment, and the car is stationary, whereas with a road tune, it's just like it sounds, you're out on the road and in order to get accurate data, you will have to break laws at some point.

Uhhh...NO.. The road tune is to smooth out the lower rpm points that you didn't cover on the dyno.
Its to maintain the driveability of the system after you've taken care of the top end on the dyno where its safe to do so. If you're breaking laws during a "road tune" .. you didn't do a good enough job on the dyno where you should have already nailed down the top end and got the bottom near enough to then finish up on the pavement.

Side note, you can't drive AND tune at the same time.. not safely. It takes two people. One tuning.. the other driving. I've done this many times, unfortunately I had to tune so I also had to find someone willing to drive my car for me. If you're lucky enough to run a standalone with autotune.. that helps quite a bit, but again even still tuning just by afr and not actual response and feel will only get you close... not right on.

Both can get great results if you have the right tuner, it's just a matter of preference and a matter of availability and tuner resources.

to PROPERLY tune a car for street use.. it should be tuned both ways. Not just one or the other. Unless you like that choppy unfinished tune feel. :screwy:

I mean, think about it these are really nice cars. Tuned they're animals. Why sacrifice your smooth street manors for performance when you can have both if you take the time to make it happen.

 

Any time you get a dyno tune, you should go out and do road logs to check/cleanup the map afterwards.

 

Dyno definitely is a much safer place to tune. Even though there are plenty of roads with no traffic, there's still the possibility of hitting an animal at speed. And if I were doing the tuning I would be very concerned about taking fourth gear pulls on the street in a customer's car.


I don't know anyone that tunes by AFR only, street or dyno. You need to data log several parameters other than simply AFR. And I don't know why someone would have trouble recording logs on the street. The only problem I see is the safety issue.


Everyone I know makes adjustments on the dyno, but not while they're doing a pull. They will wind it up, do a pull in fourth gear, then let the car coast down to a stop, review the logs, make adjustments, and start over again. I see no difference in this process whether you're on the street or on a dyno(other than having to dodge pedestrians :tongue.


I don't think you can make adjustments on the fly, but I may be wrong. You have to copy the current map to your laptop, adjust it on there, then write it back to the ECU. I haven't actually got my final maps in place from my tuner so I haven't even tried switching maps yet. But it seems like it would be a good idea to turn the ignition off and back on when switching maps.

I don't see how anyone would be able to tune on the fly. I mean, a fourth gear pull takes how long, maybe seven seconds? It seems like a very bad idea to try to be reading data logs, copying the map to the laptop, editing values, and writing it back to the ECU all in those seven seconds during the pull.

 

err.. Donkey I agree with that point (see previous posts) both are needed.. but the high rpm tune really should be conducted on the dyno. Just for safety alone.

Of course I've heard of data logging I'm a big fan. How else would one get a visual graph of what went on? esp when you cant monitor because you're driving.

also, almost every standalone ecu will allow you to interface the ECU while its functioning koer so that you can view and adjust in real time. Standalone systems are apples to oranges though when comparing to a factory ecu. So I apologize for the digression and misunderstanding.

I'm used to older cars with ecu's that dont have flash-able rom..(ford eecIV, obd I interface) so standalone system or piggy back flash-able chips were the only options. :sadwave:

Even still, high rpm tuning should be done on the rollers. A controlled environment is always safer than the street. Where I live, there aren't roads without traffic. Just a fact of life in a urban area.

 

err.. Donkey I agree with that point (see previous posts) both are needed.. but the high rpm tune really should be conducted on the dyno. Just for safety alone.

Yes but it is not 100% necessary to have a dyno tune in order to generate a good tune.

Of course I've heard of data logging I'm a big fan. How else would one get a visual graph of what went on? esp when you cant monitor because you're driving.

Right but you said this:
"Side note, you can't drive AND tune at the same time.. not safely. It takes two people. One tuning.. the other driving. I've done this many times, unfortunately I had to tune so I also had to find someone willing to drive my car for me."

That is the purpose of the datalog. Run the car,read the info after then make corrections(while the car is not moving of course). Does it take longer,yes but is completely doable. Even with professional software like ECUtek this is how it even has to be done on the dyno. Tuning in "realtime/on-the-fly" is faster when starting from scratch or a complicated setup but isn't really going to save you alot of time with a basic turbo swap and injectors in my opinion.

also, almost every standalone ecu will allow you to interface the ECU while its functioning koer so that you can view and adjust in real time. Standalone systems are apples to oranges though when comparing to a factory ecu. So I apologize for the digression and misunderstanding.

I'm used to older cars with ecu's that dont have flash-able rom..(ford eecIV, obd I interface) so standalone system or piggy back flash-able chips were the only options. :sadwave:

Right,we are not talking about OBDI cars though. We are specificly talking about the 2002+ turbocharged Subarus. I have tuned some of the older piggyback/standalones as well. In fact they were way more time consuming to tune than the factory ECU as there were no base maps for the stand alones and alot of them were universal and not very "plug and play" for most applications. Same with the piggybacks,universal. The Subaru factory ECU is just as powerful or more than most piggybacks and some standalones. Especially the JDM ECU's (mostly the programming). Dynometers are not as crucial as people think they are to get a proper tune. They are like any other tool. If you do not know how to use it or set it up properly it's not going to work right. Especially when you don't know its limitations.

 

I totally agree that top end should be done on a dyno, simply for safety reasons. But just because a tuner does only street tunes doesn't mean that they aren't any good at what they do. And it doesn't mean that their tune isn't going to be as good as one on a dyno. What if the closest AWD dyno is 300+ miles away? Believe it or not, AWD dynos are few and far between.


I was just trying to say that it's possible to get just as good of a tune on the street as it is on a dyno(safety issues aside), probably better since you're tuning in real world conditions.

 

Damn guys, that was some good reading. im also kinda happy that making this thread sparked that little convo between you more experienced guys.

Alrite, so where to begin. I was curious as too whether you guys recommend a certain type&brand of lap top when it comes to tuning your car yourself. I was also hoping someone could either shed more light on data logging, or even better yet, point me to a section on the forums about ems or ecu basics, etc?

Sorry for the hassle and questions, but thanks for being so helpful and informative

 

I was curious as too whether you guys recommend a certain type&brand of lap top when it comes to tuning your car yourself. I was also hoping someone could either shed more light on data logging, or even better yet, point me to a section on the forums about ems or ecu basics, etc?

The cheap kind. I bought my laptop for $240(of course it was an incredible deal) and it works great.




http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=33

 

Alrite, so where to begin. I was curious as too whether you guys recommend a certain type&brand of lap top when it comes to tuning your car yourself. I was also hoping someone could either shed more light on data logging, or even better yet, point me to a section on the forums about ems or ecu basics, etc?

Doesn't much matter.

If you're going to mainly use it for OpenECU, one of the little netbooks are extremely handy. A friend had one for when I was tweaking his ROM a little bit, and I like it quite a bit better than my normal sized laptop I've used.

If this is going to be an everyday laptop that is sometimes used for OpenECU, you may want to go with a normal laptop.

 

Ron... You ever plan on taking a trip to colorado... let me know

 

I will definately let you know if I'm up your way!

 

haha alrite thanks for the advice, I'm gonna save up soon, i'll probably get the lap top after I'm done with my list of tools. I need something to get on the forums when im not at home anyway :tongue:

 

One of those cutsie little net books should work fine, all you need to be able to do is have a usb port, and computing power to run the software for the tune. Thats it. Honestly you could probably use a smart phone if you could find the right apps and were motivated to do so.

technology rocks, and its only getting better.

 

Honestly you could probably use a smart phone if you could find the right apps and were motivated to do so.

technology rocks, and its only getting better.

Lol at the smart phone idea, thats pretty interesting. I think im gonna check online to see if its been done. :rotfl: Who knows, tuning apps may be the next big thing!

 

There is already obdII monitoring software and apps for the Iphone using bluetooth.

I'm sure a tuning program could be migrated to work as well. On something like Droid or other windows based platforms it might be even easier since they're getting just as popular and the os is already similar to a pc. The only issue I saw in my search was that the Iphone would have to be used with a bluetooth or wifi connected to a device plugged into the obdII port vs just a usb style cable. Other than that.. seems the technology is very well within reach.

http://www.devtoaster.com/products/rev/

http://www.checksumm.com/

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/ot2.php

tasty stuff

 

Mmm.. interesting. I'm getting the HTC Evo as soon as it is released this summer. Can you say 1000mhz snapdragon? :thumbup:

 

Let's be honest folks. A third gear pull is going to top out at 85mph. That is all you need to tune "top end" except maybe checking max boost at mid RPM in 4th (<85). This could be done at a track if that is the only place you feel like you can accelerate to 85 for a split second safely. The idea of someone competent nailing it up an on ramp to 85 is not something I am losing sleep over as threatening my friends or family.

 

those smart phone apps are pretty cool. have you tried them already? because I was wondering exactly how accurate they are

 

I haven't yet, waiting for the new Iphone to come out before I make a move to a smart phone. Right now I'm out of contract so I could use any carrier/phone I choose. Options are open.

regardless, I'd imagine they'd be accurate because most of them are just giving graphical data of what the ecu is reading.

fyi, 85 mph here is in most places 20 over. Thats an immediate reckless driving charge (class 1 misdemeanor in VA .. yes, CRIMINAL charge not traffic) ...

I'd prefer a tuner NOT get himself into trouble tuning my car even if he's ok with it. Maybe its just a personal thing but I'm more comfy with track or dyno for those needs.

 

fyi, 85 mph here is in most places 20 over. Thats an immediate reckless driving charge (class 1 misdemeanor in VA .. yes, CRIMINAL charge not traffic) ...

Weird.. I've never head of anyone around here getting charged with reckless driving unless they were clocked over 100mph. And I actually know a few people that have been clocked 120+mph and the cop wrote the ticket speed at 90mph so no one had to deal with the reckless driving charges.

 

you dont live in VA.. Your state isn't trying to make up a budget deficit on its highways, nor are your speed limits 55-65 in most places. therefor.. doesn't apply to you, however for those of us that do live in VA.. see below. Pay special attention to 46.2-862

Under Virginia Motor Vehicle Code, the term Reckless Driving includes several different acts, so the answer to this question is somewhat lengthy. The two types of Reckless Driving most commonly charged in Virginia are Reckless Driving based on speed (46.2-862) and Reckless Driving based on being involved in an accident (46.2-852 or 46.2-853). Although most of the statutes dealing with Reckless Driving offenses in Virginia set out acts which are quite specific, there are a few Reckless Driving offenses in Virginia which are vague and subjective. Several sections of Virginia's Motor Vehicle Code which deal with Reckless Driving in Virginia are set out below.

46.2-852 is the catch-all statute that says that irrespective of speed limits, driving a motor vehicle on public roads in a way that endangers other people or property it is Reckless Driving in Virginia.

46.2-853 says it is Reckless Driving in Virginia to drive a vehicle which is not under proper control or has inadequately adjusted brakes.

46.2-854 defines Reckless Driving in Virginia as passing another vehicle approaching the crest of a hill or a curve where the view is obstructed.

46.2-855 makes it Reckless Driving in Virginia to drive with the view to the front or sides obstructed or to drive while something or someone is interfering with the driver's control of the driving mechanism.

46.2-856 indicates that passing or attempting to pass two vehicles abreast is Reckless Driving in Virginia.

46.2-857 says driving abreast of another vehicle in a lane designed for one vehicle is Reckless Driving in Virginia.

46.2-858 defiines Reckless Driving in Virginia as passing or overtaking another vehicle at a railroad crossing or at an intersection.

46.2-859 includes within the definition of Reckless Driving in Virginia, the act of passing a stopped school bus under certain circumstances.

46.2-860 says failing to give adequate and timely signals of the intention to turn, slow or stop is Reckless Driving in Virginia.

46.2-861 is another catch-all code section, making it the offense of Reckless Driving in Virginia to exceed a reasonable speed considering the circumstances and traffic at the time.

46.2-862 is the Reckless Driving offense in Virginia dealing with speed - making it Reckless Driving to drive at a speed 20 mph over the speed limit, or in excess of 80 mph.

46.2-863 describes the circumstances under which failing to yield the right of way can amount to Reckless Driving in Virginia.

46.2-864 is a twist on the catch-all offense set out in 46.2-852, in that it also makes illegal and defines as Reckless Driving in Virginia any driving which endangers people or property, but where 46.2-852 is limited to operation on public roads, 46.2-864 includes churches, schools, recreational facilities, business property, roads under construction, etc.

46.2-865 discusses racing as Reckless Driving in Virginia.

Charged with anyone of these and you'll be spending for a lawyer in short order. I'd rather not pay for my tuner to have a lawyer and get out of a reckless driving ticket while he was tuning my car.

 

Charged with anyone of these and you'll be spending for a lawyer in short order. I'd rather not pay for my tuner to have a lawyer and get out of a reckless driving ticket while he was tuning my car.

Not to mention having to pay to get your out of impound..

 

bingo. Seriously.. I prefer to keep myself AND the car out of jail when I was in florida I'd have had no issue doing 3rd gear pulls to get a good solid datalog to be able to play with the maps. But here? nah.. better to just do it where its safer and a bit more legal.