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Super Moderator (Actually a SuperSpy)
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and you can still make big power with a cat. converter; all my previous build (minus the diesels) have been catted. Albeit larger 3" or so, but at least they were still cat-equipped.
Subaru themselves agree. Their cars that compete for the world championship (and even those Subarus that won, way back when...) were, are, and always will be catted.

In fact, even when Subaru lose the world championship (as they've done repeatedly) they lose to a car that is catted.

All WRC cars are catted.
 

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I read an interesting tidbit somewhere...every one Prius is nullified by a catless WRX or STI out there :rotfl:
 

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and you can still make big power with a cat. converter; all my previous build (minus the diesels) have been catted. Albeit larger 3" or so, but at least they were still cat-equipped.
is it illegal for dealer to sell car without cat conv.?
 

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is it illegal for dealer to sell car without cat conv.?
Yes, I just purchased a catless Wrx last month and the dealer had to buy me a brand new factory downpipe with catalytic converters.. I can't run it since the vehicle is tuned for stage 2 so I accepted the check to "buy it myself"
 

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How would a catless car pass emissions in CA, given the visual test?...
i used to cut the heat shields off my stock DP and weld it on my catless DP. when they look it looks like a cats on :rotfl:

opps been done.
 

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then you shoulda bought a Prius or Volt ;) :rotfl: jk
funny you bring that up. id bet money running say my car catless would save the environment MORE then buying a Prius!!!

the nickel used to make the battery in the prius is mined in Canada. then thoughs HUGE tanker ships take it to Europe to be refined, then it goes to China to become a powder, then to Japan to be put into the battery. the diesel fuel needed to truck and ship just that nickel is 1000 times worse then just me driving 20k a year. that trips like 20k but a ships motor gets like .01MPG

plus you could buy a civic and save $7000
 

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The Fruit
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then you shoulda bought a Prius or Volt ;) :rotfl: jk
Whats bad that no one thinks about with that solution is that the car doesn't produce the emissions.. but the coal power plant that fires the electrical grid DOES still produce the emissions.

So effectively.. buying a electric car doesn't help the environment any at all..it just shifts the carbon footprint off to somewhere else. Its like wiping up spilled water with your bare hand. Moves it around but doesn't fix the problem.

Cats aren't evil.. may as well run one or not change the exhaust. Besides as EJ257 mentioned.. even with a catted dp you're still breaking the law because you removed the OEM equipment designed and approved to work on that specific application.
 

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Whats bad that no one thinks about with that solution is that the car doesn't produce the emissions.. but the coal power plant that fires the electrical grid DOES still produce the emissions.

So effectively.. buying a electric car doesn't help the environment any at all..it just shifts the carbon footprint off to somewhere else. Its like wiping up spilled water with your bare hand. Moves it around but doesn't fix the problem.
There are other ways to make electricity than burning coal. Over its lifetime, even using coal to power the grid, a cumbustion engine vehicle pollutes ten fold what an electric car will, if not more, so while it doesnt eliminate the burning of fossil fuels (unless of course, you are generating your own electricity, which is how I will be charging my leaf), it drastically reduces your carbon footprint.
 

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funny you bring that up. id bet money running say my car catless would save the environment MORE then buying a Prius!!!

the nickel used to make the battery in the prius is mined in Canada.
Just for arguments sake, about 90% of the nickel used in NiMH batteries is recycled, not mined
 

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Whats bad that no one thinks about with that solution is that the car doesn't produce the emissions.. but the coal power plant that fires the electrical grid DOES still produce the emissions.

So effectively.. buying a electric car doesn't help the environment any at all..it just shifts the carbon footprint off to somewhere else.
The volumetric efficiency of a gasoline motor is far less than that of a modern power plant. That is, a power plant will produce fewer harmful byproducts per kW of generated power vs. the summation of all the gasoline counterparts. Though, then you have to factor in electrical delivery and loss... it's a gamble, but not as linear as you have suggested.
 

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The Fruit
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The volumetric efficiency of a gasoline motor is far less than that of a modern power plant. That is, a power plant will produce fewer harmful byproducts per kW of generated power vs. the summation of all the gasoline counterparts. Though, then you have to factor in electrical delivery and loss... it's a gamble, but not as linear as you have suggested.
I'm not a scientist or engineer.. just a common sense using fella that see's a problem with fully electric cars. The grid and our national infrastructure is failing RIGHT NOW... stressing it like that as most people will (because the public is full of bandwagon retards that aren't smart or motivated enough to generate their own power) .. they'll just plug it in and think "I'm being greeeeen" ... Full electric locomotion is a great Idea.. but it needs to be implemented in a manor that doesn't shift environmental impact to another area.


Now the mention of developing one's own power to recharge the car is effing brilliant! One of those small cylindrical wind mill dealies or a set of solar panels or combo of the two.... yeah now thats talkin.:)
 

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I'm not a scientist or engineer.. just a common sense using fella that see's a problem with fully electric cars. The grid and our national infrastructure is failing RIGHT NOW... stressing it like that as most people will (because the public is full of bandwagon retards that aren't smart or motivated enough to generate their own power) .. they'll just plug it in and think "I'm being greeeeen" ... Full electric locomotion is a great Idea.. but it needs to be implemented in a manor that doesn't shift environmental impact to another area.


Now the mention of developing one's own power to recharge the car is effing brilliant! One of those small cylindrical wind mill dealies or a set of solar panels or combo of the two.... yeah now thats talkin.:)
I disagree that it would be more stress on the grid, most people would charge their cars during off peak times, when the plants are producing much more power than is demanded and therefore using power that is otherwise discharged by the power company. The electricity is being generated off-peak whether we are using it or not and that is one of the largest inefficiencies of the power grid so we would actually be creating a more efficient infrastructure by using this power.
 

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Just for arguments sake, about 90% of the nickel used in NiMH batteries is recycled, not mined
quite possibly is but from sources at toyota they use fresh mined nickel. if im wrong america is still probably the worlds biggest user. we still need to ship millions of batteries across the world to japan. not to mention they need shipped first to a recycle center that can break them down and send it to china were they have the ability to make the powder nickel substance. and if we know anything china will have to do it because america or europe will charge japan to much money to do it.
 

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Now the mention of developing one's own power to recharge the car is effing brilliant! One of those small cylindrical wind mill dealies or a set of solar panels or combo of the two.... yeah now thats talkin.:)
Top Gear talked about this. it takes 4 hours to recharge a car they were talking about using a 230 euro outlet. takes 16 hours for the same car using a standard little windmill. it just doesnt work, electric is not the way!

they ONLY way we can be 100% green (minus the process of refining) is hydrogen. most abundant element in the universe and a hydrogen motor only produces H2O out the tail pipe! the Honda FCX does this beautifully. problem is the Govt is controlled by rich oil tycoons. they will not let someone take over gas stations with hydrogen stations and whatever else it takes to do this. untill they see a profit in it and let it happen, it wont till then.

best motor i can come up with is a fusion generator. makes hydrogen by splitting the H2 out of H2O. that H2 is then sent through the motor where it then makes water again. if the technology can be done a car will run forever off its own emissions
 

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Top Gear talked about this. it takes 4 hours to recharge a car they were talking about using a 230 euro outlet. takes 16 hours for the same car using a standard little windmill. it just doesnt work, electric is not the way!

they ONLY way we can be 100% green (minus the process of refining) is hydrogen. most abundant element in the universe and a hydrogen motor only produces H2O out the tail pipe! the Honda FCX does this beautifully. problem is the Govt is controlled by rich oil tycoons. they will not let someone take over gas stations with hydrogen stations and whatever else it takes to do this. untill they see a profit in it and let it happen, it wont till then.

best motor i can come up with is a fusion generator. makes hydrogen by splitting the H2 out of H2O. that H2 is then sent through the motor where it then makes water again. if the technology can be done a car will run forever off its own emissions
I'll let you know how my PV cells charge my electric car. That's 100% green and I'll smile everytime I pass a gas station. And I'm pretty sure China is the largest consumer of nickel, to produce steel. But that neither here nor there. The refining process of nickel to produce batteries is your arguement as to why electric won't work but the refining of Hydrogen will somehow work better? My elecric car will never in its entire existence produce a gram of pollution, how can you get more green than that?
 

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I disagree that it would be more stress on the grid, most people would charge their cars during off peak times, when the plants are producing much more power than is demanded and therefore using power that is otherwise discharged by the power company. The electricity is being generated off-peak whether we are using it or not and that is one of the largest inefficiencies of the power grid so we would actually be creating a more efficient infrastructure by using this power.
This statement is incorrect. The power distribution system is a load following system. The plants only produce what is demanded. As such, power plants fall into two types:

Base Loaded: Typically running all the time, albeit usually at reduced load during off-peak hours. Coal Fired and Nuclear fall into this category.

Peak Loaded: These are generating stations that are brought online to meet demand during peak hours. Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT) are a common type that run on Natural Gas.
 

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Nice thread, interesting points.

The seller of the last Evo I had tried to pass smog here in CA on E85 with an undisguised test pipe. It failed emissions but passed the visual (the tech must not have even looked or they didn't know where the cat was). On the Evo it's between the downpipe and mid-pipe so it's unmistakable and cake to swap out and also to visually see.

But my point is that even on E85 you need some kind of cat on there. I keep hearing people say that some cars can pass catless on E85 but I honestly don't believe it unless it's in some state where they pretty much don't even care what the output numbers are. Here in CA, no way.

not trying to be too picky, here, but I think the reference is "buying" a catless up-pipe, not hollowing the stocker. But I totally see what you're saying.
On my first Evo 8 (I've had 2) I had a "rally cat" which was just a test pipe with a shell that looked like a cat. It looked legit so it wasn't an issue with the visual test.

But with the Subie downpipes containing the cats...I don't see how a smog technician would be able to visually tell if you had cat(s) or not. So the visual tests are hit-or-miss depending on where you go I think.
 
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