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Fascinating

There is a LOT of reading material on that site. Commentary on everything from BOV's (bad), ECU mods (bad for now), intake mods (bad), the stock 5-speed (it's good), FMIC's (not good), etc.

His advice seems to go against a lot of the stuff I 've read on this board but seems well thought out enough.
 

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I call BS. TurboXS is doing exactly what he's saying can't be done and so far I venture to say people aren't running into that many problems. God is running 390HP (or maybe even more now), well above the article's mentioned 280HP. Virtually half that article defies all logic of building a fast and reliable turbo car.
 

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I have a hard time believing that this site is complete bs. It is definitely from a specific bias, which the author states from the very beginning. It definitely goes against a great deal I have read on this site and others. But just because it has a differing perspective doesn't make it BS. In fact, I think the way that it is presented makes it appear more reliable. Why would someone want to tell us that our cars can't reliably be tuned above x amount of horsepower? When I am examining something for BS, I always ask myself, "What does this person have to gain from this?" Tune shops have a great deal to gain from claiming that their product/tune is the greatest and best. But to caution us not to destroy our engines, that doesn't sound like BS. That sounds like common sense.

I've read most of this site, and they aren't pushing particular product as they discuss their philosophy about tuning. You have to go to a completely different section to even see their product. And they even encourage us not to change out much of our OE, a fact that gives them more credibility, not less. Again, why tell us to keep the OE stuff if they are trying to con us into buying their stuff? If we keep the OE stuff, then we don't have to spend any money at all! That I like.

I definitely agree with fengsui. I think this site is very good, especially because it DOES offer a very different opinion to that which is most bandied about on this and just about every other WRX tuning site I have seen.
 

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I tend to agree that an LINK or other tunable ECU in addition to the supporting mods (exhaust, better IC) will definitely put you where you want @ ~280-300hp and a nice reliable ride. This is kinda where I see my car when Im ready. Those who want the drag racable high horsepower can certainly do their thing and spend the extra $$$$ for the bigger turbos, etc... but no one really knows for certain what is happening on the pistons, rings, etc... I wouldn't do anything without making sure the car was ready for it (ceramic coated exhaust in preperation for anti-lag ECU program for example). Good perspective from these guys nonetheless. I doubt I'll be putting my Joe P MBC back in, since I want to continue running DS in SoloII. I think an EBC might be necessary to hod me off until its LINK time.

chris
 

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fengshui said:
I tend to agree that an LINK or other tunable ECU in addition to the supporting mods (exhaust, better IC) will definitely put you where you want @ ~280-300hp and a nice reliable ride. This is kinda where I see my car when Im ready. Those who want the drag racable high horsepower can certainly do their thing and spend the extra $$$$ for the bigger turbos, etc... but no one really knows for certain what is happening on the pistons, rings, etc... I wouldn't do anything without making sure the car was ready for it (ceramic coated exhaust in preperation for anti-lag ECU program for example). Good perspective from these guys nonetheless. I doubt I'll be putting my Joe P MBC back in, since I want to continue running DS in SoloII. I think an EBC might be necessary to hod me off until its LINK time.

chris
what class are you gonna run in when you use the Link?

personally, i like the sight. it offers something new to think about.
 

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Ok so maybe BS is a little on the extreme side. I'll admit it is a varying methodology and that it may be an accurate approach. I suppose it depends on what you're looking for out of the car. But it's really hard for me to agree 280 is the max reliable horsepower when God is sitting here running 390 all day long on pump gas. Our cars are incredibly hesitant until the exhaust is opened up, I can attest to this personally now that I have a catless up-pipe and the stealh back. Dyno's generally show a 20-40hp pick up (crank) on full exhausts, not to mention much lower EGT's. And turbo theory generally shows you want the free-est flowing exhaust after the turbo, as turbos create natural backpressure. So, granted they have nothing to gain as they are a speed shop, I just don't tend to agree with the metholodgy. My apologies for the somewhat harsh post.
 

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:p This is almost pure plagarism. Buy an Aussie book from MRT. Shheeeesh.

-Jim
 

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I have that book. It says nothing about the mystical 280hp 'limit' before engine failure.. I think this guy (with the website) is a little off. I could see him say for example your car putting out 'x' abount of tourque is too much for your tranny to handle. Or adding this mod without doing the required other mods to make it safe will cause damage. I think it's pretty rediculous..
Although I am still a noob. I'd like to hear God or Platinum- Dan I think is his name, or Pace to rip this guy up.

rick
 

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2003Platinum said:
I have that book. It says nothing about the mystical 280hp 'limit' before engine failure.. I think this guy (with the website) is a little off. I could see him say for example your car putting out 'x' abount of tourque is too much for your tranny to handle. Or adding this mod without doing the required other mods to make it safe will cause damage. I think it's pretty rediculous..
Although I am still a noob. I'd like to hear God or Platinum- Dan I think is his name, or Pace to rip this guy up.

rick
Agreed, I'd like to hear the opinion of a seasoned vet from the board.
 

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Or then again, maybe this guy is the real deal, and all the 'seasoned guys' on the board are actually parts dealers.. or repair shops getting us to break are rides! ;)

I just hope the above site is not correct.. I want more that 280 hp!! (I hope they are talking whp at least and not crank)


Rick
 

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I guess this just goes to show how subjective the term 'reliability' is. I think this guy means that you can only go to 280 or so hp to maintain factory reliability. In some ways he is flat out wrong - God, Pace, the Cobb Tuning boys, and Phil from Turbo XS have all been running substantially more power for very long periods of time, which totally contradicts what this article says. Sorry, that's just the evidence.

On the other hand, I do have this deep fear/belief that in the long run (100k+ miles), engines with stock internals pushing out more than 330-350 hp or so may run into early wear situations. True, I still believe that with good tuning and running with safety as the primary concern it is totally safe to raise the power levels of this engine, I do feel that these things were designed incredibly well and aren't in their reliability element at 150% or more than their standard power levels.

That said, I feel these engines are incredibly stout for a four cyl. open deck aluminum block engine when tuned right. Just take a look at this post. Seems to me these guys are a little pessimistic, though their opinion is a nice wake up to us die hards who might be convinced we can run 500 hp's forever in our perfect in every way ;) WRX's!!! Enjoy:





We compression tested my motor today. My traps had been falling and I had figured it was time for a rebuild. I decided to make this a new thread as others where asking what is the reliable limit on a USDM EJ20 engine.

Back ground on my motor:

120+ 1/4 mile passes with Most of those running a big turbo (vf22 and up).

4 Road races where the engine withstood around 80-90 miles of WOT and redline shifts. So much abuse that I would burn an entire tank of gas every 80 miles. Speeds of 140mph over and over and over again with no backing down.

25,000 miles of trips and commuting in traffic. Not a single day I did not rev this motor out.

About ten 10lb bottles of nitrous running 16-19 psi on the bottle. Most during drag race passes.

This motor has made 250- to over 400 wheel hp most of its life. At 500 miles it hit the strip for the first time.

Results:

Cyl#1 = 155psi
Cyl#2 = 160psi
Cyl#3 = 165psi
Cyl#4 = 157psi

Thats right. More compression than what is noted in the manual. Its tight as a drum with as close to zero leak down as you can get. NGK plugs with 12,000 miles of nitrous usage looked like new and Gap was still .26

Obviously I was amazed at the results. By the way we used a snap on compression tester if anyone cares. I guess I dont need a motor rebuild afterall. In fact... I really need a clutch. I expect my traps to go back up with the new clutch installed.

In my opinion the only reason this motor is alive could be one or more of a few things. First, I upgraded the fuel system when the car was about stock. Parallel Vishnu rails, injectors, FPR and fuel pump is probably the reason this thing is still going. I have acurate and equal fueling. Secondly, I have a host of Greddy gauges that I have always paid attention too along with a knock link. Second, I dont run more then 19 psi ever and "most" of its life I ran 16-17 PSI at the track. I still feel that anyone running more then 16 psi is asking for trouble no matter what the tune is unless you are running straight race fuel.

This motor could let go tomorrow but as for today its rock solid. I have backed things down a bit in an attempt to hold on to it through the race season that starts next weekend.

CT
 

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stilesg57-

Thanks for the nice layout. Question tho. Which cylinder is the one that does get starved of fuel in extreme conditions?

And...in reading this I come up with one over-riding idea. Its that you can rag the begeesus outta the stock setup for miles upon miles and not worry too much about hurting it...right? I don't mean hold it at 6k for 20 miles at a time, but really hammer it hard frequently and not have too much concern for its durability.
 

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PlatinumZ said:
:p This is almost pure plagarism. Buy an Aussie book from MRT. Shheeeesh.

-Jim
Jim,

Beg to differ. I have "Training WRX" by Nick Warne published by MRT on my desk right in front of me and have read it cover to cover at least three times. This site does not even borrow from that book.

Bill
 

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stilesg57 said:
I guess this just goes to show how subjective the term 'reliability' is. I think this guy means that you can only go to 280 or so hp to maintain factory reliability. In some ways he is flat out wrong - God, Pace, the Cobb Tuning boys, and Phil from Turbo XS have all been running substantially more power for very long periods of time, which totally contradicts what this article says. Sorry, that's just the evidence.

\CT
What's the evidence? That God, Pace, Cobb Tuning et al CLAIM to have their cars running at high horsepower with great reliability? Have you personally witnessed this? Or are you going by their written claims?

If you are basing your statement about reliability on their claims and not on personal experience, then that's not evidence. That's hearsay. No tuner is going to say that half of their cars blow up after a while even if it is true. Would be bad for business.

Disclaimer: Please don't misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that any of these people aren't acheiving high reliability with high horsepower. I'm not saying that each of these tuners is not eminently capable and very honest. Since I have no firsthand personal experience with any of them, any claims I would try to make about them would be hearsay. I'm only saying that unless you have personally witnessed this for yourself, then you are only going on hearsay, not evidence.

Also, what is "reliability?" You used the term "factory" to define yours. If by that you mean that these cars will run as long a the factory cars, then we will have to wait and see because the WRX is too new to tell. When a tuner has a car with 200k miles on it that has been tuned to over 300 hp for all of those miles, then we have evidence that it is possible to tune a car this high and keep it reliable.

If by "factory" you mean that it runs as good as or better than the factory tune, then I won't argue with you there. I have ridden in a WRX that makes a great deal over stock hp and runs great. But I don't think reliability should mean how good the car runs right now, but how long it will last running that high. Racers tune their cars to the bleeding edge. They don't just run good; they run great! For one pass or one race or until the engine blows. These tunes aren't reliable in my estimation, because they have to keep a stable of mechanics on hand to keep fixing the darned things;)

Sorry to go so philosophical about the word reliability, but your claims of "evidence" put me in a lawyerly mood.
 

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Hey Billkid, back in High School I was on the mock trial team, so I hear ya with the "hearsay" comment!

Some of what I said was not hearsay though...

I love Cobb tuning for their philosophy that reliability comes first. I have seen one of their customer's cars on the dyno just before I got mine on to get my Unichip tuned - this guy had the RT spec kit and had a base run of 258 hp and something like 255-260 tq (he had just put on an uppipe and wanted his unichip tuned for it). I of course asked him how much he liked it and how long he had it on his car. He told me he put it on with 3800 miles on it. Then I looked at the odometer...

79,000 miles!!! :eek:

Appearently he drove A LOT and took many extended trips on the highway. He had only had the car a year, with ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER. He said he had done his fair share of autocrossing and loved to terror the stoplights, but he always changed his oil on schedule, was as easy as possible on the tranny, and went in for all sheduled maintenece. So, I've got a little firsthand experience with Cobb, and I would call 260 or so whp for 75,000+ miles pretty reliable!

Another instance...
I had the pleasure of seeing Pace run at bandimere speedway a few months back. No problems, and he runs it pretty hard. BTW, in the 12's at 6000ft is friggin incredible! I ran my old mustang at the high school drags and was faster than ANY IMPORT car up there with a 13.4. That 'stang was fast - my Rex is definately slower, so I can't imagine a WRX running in the 12's up there!

One more, I promise...
By total chance, I got to ride in/inspect an Aussie 1996 WRX about a month before I bought my 2002. This was a kid at another high school who before he moved here (from austrailia)found out that the only 'performance' Impreza we could get in the States was a non-turbo 165hp 2.5l. His family had some serious coin, and paid to have his car shipped here and meet U.S. emissions. And I got to ride in it:D This was a 1996 with 119,000 miles (converted from km's) which had been tuned early in its life by APS (Cobb's Aussie brother), and then later by AVO Turboworld as well. No problems.

Anyway, while I applaud your correction of my terms, the point is that I don't think the article is entirely right in many senses, and I don't think that all the tuners out there lie and have a big conspiracy going on. You are right about the hearsay in my previous argument though! Not everybody hates lawyers around here...:)
 

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Oh, yeah, and to clarify what I call 'factory' reliability:

the engine lasts exactly as long as it would if it had remained totally stock

Brembo: First off, I love your brakes:D lol
About the lean cylinder...#3 is the problem, it gets starved a little more than the others, and this really becomes appearent when you start to reach the max flow levels of the factory system. Is it a problem? I don't know, I have seen and heard too much conflicting ideas and examples, everything from
"the stock fuel rails are one of the better stock ANYTHINGS on the car and can flow fuel for 500 hp, don't worry about them"
to
"If are making enough power to where you need to change the injectors/pump, larger fuel rails are a must for reliability"

I personally feel both claims are on the opposite sides of extreme, but I'll tell you how I personally feel...

I'm putting off my purchase of an SR30 turbo until I have enough $$$ for fuel pump, injectors, AND rails. Why? I know Cobb is centered entirely around reliability and they run this turbo with their RT spec with NO fuel goodies, but I have this compulsion after my bad reliability experiences with that earlier stated '67 Mustang to do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY CAN to be both fast and stupidly safe with my cars. I see a direct correlation in the posts of thousands of WRX racers and enthusiasts between good fuel delivery and engine longevity. Look at what we have with the WRX engine - simply a technical marvel. Hey, I used to think fuel injected 5.0's were almost too high tech. I've gone from huge displacement V8's with carbs and cams to ultra efficient high winding four bangers with turbos and more than enough computers to get to the moon. When dealing with this type of advanced systems, you are allowing an engine to run in the upper spere of it's physical ability with so little margin for error in any area of operation that something that would go almost unnoticed in the Mustang could be catastrophic. I see this technology as a way to safeguard and engine from destroying itself when run at the absolute limits of it's displacement.

And these baby's need fuel with no margin of error. So yes, I'm gonna error on the side of caution and spend way too much money on a fuel system for a turbo that won't take me much past 280 whp. Why? Because in the long run, it all comes down to this:

It's cheap insurance!

just my ideas, I'm sure you'll see many others by many other more qualified people on this forum, but that's how I feel. This way, I know with 100% certainty that I'll be safe. It will let me sleep at night:)
 
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