[Marmaduke]

Taking delivery of my WRX this month. One of the main competitors right now is obviously the Corolla GR. Better horsepower/torque and LSD available, it looks way better (IMO) and is available in a hatch.

All things considered, it’s a better car on paper for the same price as MSRP for many VB WRX’s in premium trim (although good luck finding a GR at MSRP while WRX’s are advertised under all around).

That stated, all of that power in the Toyota is coming from a 1.6L THREE cylinder engine. Toyota’s are usually extremely reliable and well built (my wife’s mini van is a testament to this), but that’s a lot of power to squeeze out of very little displacement and 3 cylinders. I’m not an engineer or a mechanic, but my laymen’s brain thinks this engine is about as tuned as it’ll ever be. I want to have faith that Toyota is continuing with their legendary reliability in this, but do we have any idea how much more performance could be reliably eeked out if that drivetrain?

While we don’t really know yet, the 2.4L has already been shown in the Accent of more power from the factory, and the popular rumor is that this engine has lots of room for tuner improvement.

So what do we think…. Will those of us going with the VB WRX be proven right in the long run (so long as RTV doesn’t clog our pickup), or will Toyota’s legendary reliability stand? Will a JB4 or state 1 WRX deliver similar numbers but still be a 9/10 Subaru still on the road in 10 years while GRs are blowing up engines just outside of warranty?

Really curious on more smarter people’s thoughts.

 

[CaTiRo79]

I don’t follow Toyota but the GR Yaris has been out for a little while overseas. They should have an idea of the reliability and potential power output of their 3 cylinder.

Also, if the JB4 is like what’s on the Q50/Q60 that “tricks” the ECU I would personally avoid it on the WRX.

 

[22Rex_Red]

remember, a lot of review sites/companies get paid to do good reviews.

 

[XJman]

The fa24 is a tank. It's a large displacement making decent power. The Yaris has a tiny engine making shit tons of power.

Long term the Yaris will die first. It's just the nature of the beast.

Other reliability standards, hard to tell. Toyota and Subaru have been working together for a while now and I suspect quality standards are pretty matched. If this was a generic Camry I'd say the Camry all day long, but it isn't.

 

[zax]

The GR Corolla is objectively cooler /thread.

 

[Marmaduke]

The GR Corolla is objectively cooler /thread.

Well that’s not really the point of the thread, although it is its premise.

Objectively it is cooler on paper. That stated, we all know on paper is not real world.

I am admitted payment on this…. But I see a 3cyl car pushing 273HP. That’s 91 HP per cylinder with .533L of engine displacement per cylinder.

The VB has four cylinders putting out 271 HP and significantly less torque based on published numbers. That’s 67.65HP per cylinder and .600L of engine displacement per cylinder.

I guess I see that and go maybe the optimistic tuners are right regarding the “tuneability” of the VBs engine. That, or the GR is always one rev limiter bounce off of a blown engine.

Did Toyota crack the code, or is there more to the story? Is there a rebuttal to the Toyota fanboys who will copy/paste your post or is the GR really that superior of a car at effectively the same price point?

 

[CaTiRo79]

They cracked the code probably with Subarus help.

 

[zax]

Well that’s not really the point of the thread, although it is its premise.

Objectively it is cooler on paper. That stated, we all know on paper is not real world.

I am admitted payment on this…. But I see a 3cyl car pushing 273HP. That’s 91 HP per cylinder with .533L of engine displacement per cylinder.

The VB has four cylinders putting out 271 HP and significantly less torque based on published numbers. That’s 67.65HP per cylinder and .600L of engine displacement per cylinder.

I guess I see that and go maybe the optimistic tuners are right regarding the “tuneability” of the VBs engine. That, or the GR is always one rev limiter bounce off of a blown engine.

Did Toyota crack the code, or is there more to the story? Is there a rebuttal to the Toyota fanboys who will copy/paste your post or is the GR really that superior of a car at effectively the same price point?

The EJ255 had less power and more displacement. Was it more reliable?

 

[Marmaduke]

The EJ255 had less power and more displacement. Was it more reliable?

I wasn’t joking when I said I’m a layman. I’m assuming you’re referring to an engine code, specifically to make a point countering my assumptions.

I’ll pull out Google…

 

[zax]

Also, GR Corolla has a fantastic 300 hp from its 1.6L 3 cylinder.

That's not all that crazy in today's world of swan-song ICE vehicles. With 500hp 3L M3s, 415hp 2L CLA AMG S, 400hp from a 2.5L 5cyl Audi engine.

The ICE will be soon left behind, and either Subaru wins with the Solterra or the fate is the same for Subaru. The 2.4L WRX was a silly step. It kept the same number of cylinders and INCREASED the displacement for no additional torque. The golden ratio of engine geometries is a square with 500cc of displacement per cylinder. Subaru had that with the FA20 so why did they change it?

That said, the party trick of Toyota's 1.6L 3cyl should be fuel economy, but the press have found that was a lie...

 

[zax]

OK OK you want a more direct answer to your question... which will be more reliable?

Probably the GR Corolla.

It's more expensive and more exclusive and less sought-after by the fuckboi crowd that has infested the Subaru community. Owners kill motors. Subaru WRX owners will probably remain much worse than GR Corolla owners, at least until that car drops in value.

 

[CaTiRo79]

Subaru had that with the FA20 so why did they change it?

They had a warehouse full of 2.4L blocks and had to find a way to use them. 🙂

 

[XJman]

Also, GR Corolla has a fantastic 300 hp from its 1.6L 3 cylinder.

That's not all that crazy in today's world of swan-song ICE vehicles. With 500hp 3L M3s, 415hp 2L CLA AMG S, 400hp from a 2.5L 5cyl Audi engine.

The ICE will be soon left behind, and either Subaru wins with the Solterra or the fate is the same for Subaru. The 2.4L WRX was a silly step. It kept the same number of cylinders and INCREASED the displacement for no additional torque. The golden ratio of engine geometries is a square with 500cc of displacement per cylinder. Subaru had that with the FA20 so why did they change it?

That said, the party trick of Toyota's 1.6L 3cyl should be fuel economy, but the press have found that was a lie...

They changed it for the simple equation of lower specific output typically results in longer lived engines with fewer reliability issues. It also consolidated their engine offerings reusing an already available platform, that made the power they wanted for the platform.

The cost savings for them was probably quite notable.

OK OK you want a more direct answer to your question... which will be more reliable?

Probably the GR Corolla.

It's more expensive and more exclusive and less sought-after by the fuckboi crowd that has infested the Subaru community. Owners kill motors. Subaru WRX owners will probably remain much worse than GR Corolla owners, at least until that car drops in value.

Yeah, you missed the mark on that. They are throbbing for it.

 

[Marmaduke]

Also, GR Corolla has a fantastic 300 hp from its 1.6L 3 cylinder.

That's not all that crazy in today's world of swan-song ICE vehicles. With 500hp 3L M3s, 415hp 2L CLA AMG S, 400hp from a 2.5L 5cyl Audi engine.

The ICE will be soon left behind, and either Subaru wins with the Solterra or the fate is the same for Subaru. The 2.4L WRX was a silly step. It kept the same number of cylinders and INCREASED the displacement for no additional torque. The golden ratio of engine geometries is a square with 500cc of displacement per cylinder. Subaru had that with the FA20 so why did they change it?

That said, the party trick of Toyota's 1.6L 3cyl should be fuel economy, but the press have found that was a lie...

I really do appreciate your insight

OK OK you want a more direct answer to your question... which will be more reliable?

Probably the GR Corolla.

It's more expensive and more exclusive and less sought-after by the fuckboi crowd that has infested the Subaru community. Owners kill motors. Subaru WRX owners will probably remain much worse than GR Corolla owners, at least until that car drops in value.

Playing devil’s advocate…

1) Driver aside - It does stand to reason that similarly driven, both of these vehicles will likely exhibit great reliability if not consistently hammered on. Objectively, I think the Subaru should last longer as it shouldn’t have to work as hard for the same result.

2) The Corolla GR is… in a way… The STI Wagon we all wanted…. and the car looks better (less grown up than WRX with the WRX’s body cladding). I think the new WRX may actually appeal to some non traditional WRX drivers because if the atrocious body cladding and the “automatic sport transmission” was designed to get new drivers into the WRX. I think that the Corolla GR will be driven by people who will drive it hard. Those who will drive normally will be getting an automatic Corolla in a trim under $30,000 MSRP.

Not saying I’m right, but I’d like to think I know a lot more about people/consumers than I do engines (wishful thinking?)

They had a warehouse full of 2.4L blocks and had to find a way to use them. 🙂

Probably more a part of the equation than we’d like to admit.

They changed it for the simple equation of lower specific output typically results in longer lived engines with fewer reliability issues. It also consolidated their engine offerings reusing an already available platform, that made the power they wanted for the platform.

The cost savings for them was probably quite notable.

Yeah, you missed the mark on that. They are throbbing for it.

Makes you think…. ICE cars are getting phased out. Eventually ICE service departments (and possibly service departments in general) will be reduced to nothing.

The more commonalities across products makes a supply chain you know is going defunct easier to manage. I wonder how much if that plays in… especially with Subaru not having the same set up as some of the larger badge branded counterparts.

 

[XJman]

I really do appreciate your insight




Playing devil’s advocate…

1) Driver aside - It does stand to reason that similarly driven, both of these vehicles will likely exhibit great reliability if not consistently hammered on. Objectively, I think the Subaru should last longer as it shouldn’t have to work as hard for the same result.

2) The Corolla GR is… in a way… The STI Wagon we all wanted…. and the car looks better (less grown up than WRX with the WRX’s body cladding). I think the new WRX may actually appeal to some non traditional WRX drivers because if the atrocious body cladding and the “automatic sport transmission” was designed to get new drivers into the WRX. I think that the Corolla GR will be driven by people who will drive it hard. Those who will drive normally will be getting an automatic Corolla in a trim under $30,000 MSRP.

Not saying I’m right, but I’d like to think I know a lot more about people/consumers than I do engines (wishful thinking?)




Probably more a part of the equation than we’d like to admit.



Makes you think…. ICE cars are getting phased out. Eventually ICE service departments (and possibly service departments in general) will be reduced to nothing.

The more commonalities across products makes a supply chain you know is going defunct easier to manage. I wonder how much if that plays in… especially with Subaru not having the same set up as some of the larger badge branded counterparts.

Most mechanics I know I wouldn't trust to pour a bowl of cereal. It takes ages to find a good one as they are rare.

Service departments are just part jockeys and with robotics and ai becoming ever present the need for that is growing to a close.

As far as opting for an ICE in general, it makes sense if they decide on a hybrid platform for the hypothetical future STI. Use a lower specific output engine and pack several hundred hp of electric chooch to it. The fa24 would be a solid platform giving solid torque out of boost for a nice driver plus the power and potential surge from electric aid.

From my perspective in the industry, there is no slowing development of internal combustion engines. For example, Mazda just defined all logic and reintroduced the least reliable and least proficient engine ever produced. An engine so bad it nearly drove them to bankruptcy when ford dropped their holdings because of their refusal to kill the engine.

 

[Marmaduke]

Googling new rotary engine now.

 

[silver_scooby]

From my perspective in the industry, there is no slowing development of internal combustion engines. For example, Mazda just defined all logic and reintroduced the least reliable and least proficient engine ever produced. An engine so bad it nearly drove them to bankruptcy when ford dropped their holdings because of their refusal to kill the engine.

Yeah, for all the press given to EV budgets, if you read the annual reports of carmakers and ICE component mfrs, the development budgets for engines are as healthy as ever. Anecdotally, the number of open engineering jobs for ICE has increased between 2017 when I graduated and now.

That's part of what makes Mazda so special. Engineering genius, beautiful design and insane stubbornness. Consider it's a small company over half a century younger than Merc. The number of world firsts is staggering:

• Rotary engines obv, also turbo and hydrogen rotaries.
• The only non-piston le mans winner.
• First miller cycle car engine.
• First and only HCCI (spcci) production engine maker.
• Invented friction spot welding for steel to aluminum.
• First nanoparticle catalytic converters.

 

[XJman]

Yeah, for all the press given to EV budgets, if you read the annual reports of carmakers and ICE component mfrs, the development budgets for engines are as healthy as ever. Anecdotally, the number of open engineering jobs for ICE has increased between 2017 when I graduated and now.

That's part of what makes Mazda so special. Engineering genius, beautiful design and insane stubbornness. Consider it's a small company over half a century younger than Merc. The number of world firsts is staggering:

• Rotary engines obv, also turbo and hydrogen rotaries.
• The only non-piston le mans winner.
• First miller cycle car engine.
• First and only HCCI (spcci) production engine maker.
• Invented friction spot welding for steel to aluminum.
• First nanoparticle catalytic converters.

Special isn't the exact term I would use. But sure.

Yeah we just got some production and order stats a few weeks ago. The divisions that handle engine components like cams and valve springs have seen their largest order intake of all time. Trouncing any previous order levels.

It's really odd for all the manufacturers making huge pushes to production changes for electric vehicles. We just fired up a few new production lines in Europe focusing on ev battery armor and gear reducers.

 

[silver_scooby]

Special isn't the exact term I would use. But sure.

Yeah we just got some production and order stats a few weeks ago. The divisions that handle engine components like cams and valve springs have seen their largest order intake of all time. Trouncing any previous order levels.

It's really odd for all the manufacturers making huge pushes to production changes for electric vehicles. We just fired up a few new production lines in Europe focusing on ev battery armor and gear reducers.

Wow, from the outside it looked like business as usual but order record is something else.

I think BMW's strategy is looking to be correct. An even split between ICE, hybrid and EV for the high volume makers. EU can't get it's combustion ban to pass, Japan and china have exempted hybrids from any bans, India has delayed it to 2040 and hasn't made it a law but a rather easily circumvented registration rule.

 

[zax]

It's worth mentioning that, while Mazda popularized the Wankel engine, it wasn't the first manufacturer to use a Wankel in a production vehicle.

We should also be clear in distinguishing Wankel from other types of Rotary engines.

It's no doubt that Mazda has been pretty pioneering for such a small automaker, but that little nitpick has always bugged me.

Back to the topic at hand... Specific output is NOT a good indicator of engine reliability. There are so many factors in the design that correlate to performance and reliability. I would strongly argue that there is more overlap between various specific outputs and reliability than variation between. HOWEVER, there may be a weak correlation primarily driven by the supporting technologies needed to get a 1.6L 3cyl 300hp engine to pass modern emissions standards. Then it would be important to characterize what we define as "failure."