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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK,

A recent BS flag by one of our members has led me to realize that most of us don't know jack about "the juice." Poor clueless saps see TF&TF and immediately think, "I need NOS." This is some of the stupidest thinking in high performance four cylinders. Four cylinders of the high performance variety make their power one of three ways: high compression, turbocharging, or supercharging. None of these three are compatible and shouldn't be used at the same time.

Now, once you have all the power that your built up four cylinder drag motor can make and you still aren't satisfied, you add some laughing gas, that's right N2O.

In my humble opinion, the only safe nitrous is wet nitrous. This system consists of a fuel/nitrous MIXED injection immediately above the intake valve of each cylinder. The N2O can also be introduced into the fuel system using the stock fuel system, as long as the injectors are big enough and the static fuel pressure is high enough. If you are 17 years old and think a dry nitrous system is your ticket to a 12 second daily driver, you WILL have to rebuild your motor if you spray even twice a month.

Since I don't know everything about Ntrous Oxide (N2O or NOx)and I dont' have to: here is a link to the experts.

-Jim
 

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I don't know about completely incompatible, although I've only seen one 'style' of incompatibility. Roots SC + Centrifugal SC = quite common combo overseas. There are even a few L guys doing it. Now, I've never seen a turbo + roots SC, but if a centrifugal works, I don't see why a turbo wouldn't. The intended overall effect is an ultra-wide, ultra-high powerband. Something I'd love to try....if I only had the $$$/time

$$$
----- = 0 ; $$$ = time * 0 ; $$$ = 0 ; such is life :(
time

VV

PlatinumWRX said:

......
Four cylinders of the high performance variety make their power one of three ways: high compression, turbocharging, or supercharging. None of these three are compatible and shouldn't be used at the same time.
......
-Jim
 

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NO2 fun!

Now, I've never seen a turbo + roots SC
There were old style MR2's that had that combo.


Four cylinders of the high performance variety make their power one of three ways: high compression, turbocharging, or supercharging. None of these three are compatible and shouldn't be used at the same time.

Not true at all. Nitrous when used correctly can in many instances be a better power adder for your motor then SC or TC. Let's think , in the end all nitrous is doing is adding O2 to the combustion process. It's an oxidizer not combustable on it's own. That's why it's refered to as a blower in a bottle. After the combustion process, the resultant left over N(nitrogen) cools the combustion chamber by typically around 70 degrees or so. Now the increased cylnder pressures are indeed going to put stress on the motor , but no more so then a turbo or SC. And the good thing is that NO2 is only on when you press the button. the other two always cause increased heat and pressure. Granted there are retards who have no Idea what they're doing and slap a single 100hp dry shot onto the motor and wonder why the motor grenaded. No shit sherlock! If you properly compensate for fuel, timing, plug heat range and gap, and use what can sensibly be in the limits of the stress load of your bottom end, you can spray all day long and be just as reliable as stock. I had a 1970 GTO judge with a Ram AirIII 400 and a 250 shot of NOS(Yes the brand). It was auto and would spin the tires(295's) in second half way down the track. Only ran it for two weeks cause it scared the shit out of me. Later I rebuilt the motor and there was no sign of abuse cause all precausions were taken properly. When people ask me what would I recomend for the best bang for the buck mod, It's always No2. Checkout the Venom VCN 2000 system. Uses factory injectors and Monitors AF, and if shit goes to lean, it kills the juice. If they only came up with a fogger system with seperate fuel supply, that kit would be safe as hell and make crazy power.
 

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Platinum,

I see we are back on the pros / cons of N20.. I'm going to through my 2 cents in.. Hope you don't mind..

"A recent BS flag by one of our members has led me to realize that most of us don't know jack about "the juice." Poor clueless saps see TF&TF and immediately think, "I need NOS." This is some of the stupidest thinking in high performance four cylinders. Four cylinders of the high performance variety make their power one of three ways: high compression, turbocharging, or supercharging. None of these three are compatible and shouldn't be used at the same time."

I personaly believe there are 4 ways to build a motor wheather it be 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or even 5 cyl motors..

NA = Big cam, great flowing heads
Blower motor = supper charger
Turbo = self explanatory
N20 = Nice cold condenced Oxygen

My personal belief is no one has really ventured into the only N20 for 4 cyl motors.. Your have to have a very strong bottom end for big shots of N20. The motors have to be able to withstand a lot of heat, the cam has to be ground for the application, and the exhaust has to flow.. Most big shot N20 motors are forged internal motors. With the smaller shots 100-150 (V8's thats small) you don't need forged motors but it is nice..

How many forged 4 cyl motors are out there?
How many 4 cyl motors have been built for N20 specificaly?

Like I mentioned before, I don't think people have tried to build a N20 only 4 cyl..



"Now, once you have all the power that your built up four cylinder drag motor can make and you still aren't satisfied, you add some laughing gas, that's right N2O."

Not the case at all.. See by building a motor by the above stated you should be designing it for your specific application. Yes N20 can be an aid to your other means of HP but you should not relie on it to boost you farther. In all reality you could be setting yourself for disaster. Too much timing in a NA motor adding N20 is an issue, not enough fuel system is another issue for all of the above, increase cyl pressure is a huge problem for turbo and blown cars as well as increased heat.. As you can see, N20 mixed with others can be a disater.. It is better to use it to aid your slow spooling turbo..



"In my expert opinion as a mechanical engineer, the only safe nitrous is wet nitrous. This system consists of a fuel/nitrous MIXED injection immediately above the intake valve of each cylinder. The N2O can also be introduced into the fuel system using the stock fuel system, as long as the injectors are big enough and the static fuel pressure is high enough. If you are 17 years old and think a dry nitrous system is your ticket to a 12 second daily driver, you WILL have to rebuild your motor if you spray even twice a month."

Not true.. Dry systems are very safe as long as your fuel system is up to it.. You wouldn't use 28# injectors on a 500rwhp car would you? Think of it that way. If your planning on a 100 shot plan on increasing your fuel system wheather it be dry or wet.

In all reality, I could say wet is more unsafe than dry.. New vehicle intake systems are designed to cary air, not fuel.. By putting fuel through an intake, just think of what would be at risk with a back fire. Thats right, your whole intake and posibly your top end..

Dry is much more safe if you have the fuel system to support it.

That it.. I'm going on vacation.. Take it easy..
 

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PlatinumWRX said:
Four cylinders of the high performance variety make their power one of three ways: high compression, turbocharging, or supercharging. None of these three are compatible and shouldn't be used at the same time.
that's BS. Where do you get this stuff? The key most 4 cylinders use for power is Revs, and FI. High compression and nitrous work WELL together.

In my expert opinion as a mechanical engineer, the only safe nitrous is wet nitrous. This system consists of a fuel/nitrous MIXED injection immediately above the intake valve of each cylinder. The N2O can also be introduced into the fuel system using the stock fuel system, as long as the injectors are big enough and the static fuel pressure is high enough. If you are 17 years old and think a dry nitrous system is your ticket to a 12 second daily driver, you WILL have to rebuild your motor if you spray even twice a month.
[/B]
Nope, dry systems are perfectly safe with a small shot (75 and under). Have you used nitrous before? It's actually quite simple and easy. I used to spray every other day or so. No biggie.

I do agree that a lot of people don't know nitrous that well and you CAN blow things up easily. The key is to start small (ie 50shot) and work your way up and monitor the results each time (plugs, a/f, egt, etc).

-C
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Re: The Truth vs. The Myth of Nitrous Oxide

Everybody needs to RE-READ my freaking post. When exactly did I say Nitrous and high compression don't work together?

I do <seriously> know what I'm talking about.

-Jim

TypeC said:

that's BS. Where do you get this stuff? The key most 4 cylinders use for power is Revs, and FI. High compression and nitrous work WELL together.

Nope, dry systems are perfectly safe with a small shot (75 and under). Have you used nitrous before? It's actually quite simple and easy. I used to spray every other day or so. No biggie.

I do agree that a lot of people don't know nitrous that well and you CAN blow things up easily. The key is to start small (ie 50shot) and work your way up and monitor the results each time (plugs, a/f, egt, etc).

-C
 

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PlatinumWRX said:
TypeC,

Is the word nitrous in that sentence?

-Jim
gotcha ;)
In any event, Forced induction and nitrous also work well together. It's like a liquid IC plus boost in a bottle.

There are several people running dry kits on 'stock' (less exhaust stuff) running deep 12's. It's a very cheap mod. Personally having been there, I like all the time power myself. Nothing like more boost! :D
 

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PlatinumWRX said:
FINALLY!

Jeez, it's like writing to a bunch of bricks sometimes. j/k :D

-Jim

Platinum..
I hope you were not referring to me being a brick.. I was just trying to help you understand N20 better.. Take it easy..
 

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I NEED NOS Anyway

Why not just use a sneaky pete application, but get the extra injectors to run it wet and juice it only at launches? Hmm, I guess I'd still do some forged pistons at least..ya know, even if you have nitrous, you don't need to actually 'use' it. Purging next to turbo car is already cool in it's own right...that alone usually even prevents the street race ever happening...my02 cents
 

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Re: I NEED NOS Anyway

206WRX_GDA said:
Why not just use a sneaky pete application, but get the extra injectors to run it wet and juice it only at launches? Hmm, I guess I'd still do some forged pistons at least..ya know, even if you have nitrous, you don't need to actually 'use' it. Purging next to turbo car is already cool in it's own right...that alone usually even prevents the street race ever happening...my02 cents


FYI.. Bigger injectors does not make a N20 kit wet.. What makes a wet kit just that is a second fuel line that goes to a solenoid that sprays extra fuel in to the intake when you spray the N20..




People, Do some research on things before you talk about them. All you do is make yourself look stupid to the people that understand the product they are talking about..
 

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WET or DRY?

Hmm, sorry for the confusion. I thought that the dry application only has only one means of injection, thru the intake. And wet application injected gas into each cylinder. So that's one line via dry application vs. 4 (assuming it's a 4 banger) via wet, at least I thought that's how it worked. I never said anything about a "bigger" injector. My email says "extra"...

MY02 Cents...

B
 

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Re: WET or DRY?

206WRX_GDA said:
Hmm, sorry for the confusion. I thought that the dry application only has only one means of injection, thru the intake. And wet application injected gas into each cylinder. So that's one line via dry application vs. 4 (assuming it's a 4 banger) via wet, at least I thought that's how it worked. I never said anything about a "bigger" injector. My email says "extra"...

MY02 Cents...

B


A little more on this for you.. I think you are still a little confused, but you at least seem to want to understand. Lets hope I can explain it real good this time..


Here are the basics..

Dry N20 systems only spray N20 and rely on your injectors / fuel pump to supply the added fuel needed. With this type of system you need to make sure your fuel pump and injectors are capable of supplying the amount of extra fuel needed.

Wet N20 systems supply both N20 and fuel in some way. I personally only know of 3 different ways to do this.

1) The 2 solenoid wet system.. This is the most standard way It uses 2 solenoids. One controls the N20 and the other splices into your stock fuel line, from there it runs to your intake system behind your MAF.

The way this works is when you arm the system you are now arming 1 relay that controls 2 solenoids. When you press your button at WOT the relay opens both solenoids. This flows the N20 and fuel. Your added fuel now runs through your air intake system along with your N20 and air from your air box.

The problem with this wet system is today’s intakes were not designed to flow fuel because of fuel injection. With a back fire you could be finding yourself buying a new intake for your car.

2) Direct port system.. This is what you were describing. This system supplies fuel to each cylinder with its own fuel line under the injector.

This one works just like the one described above but you don’t run the risk that comes with the above on backfires and so forth due to the fuel being supplied at the cylinder and not through the intake.

3) This one is brand new put out by NOS.. They refer to it as the NOSzle system. I don’t know a lot about it as I have never seen it in person. I think it is there version of a direct port system.



People typicaly go with the first wet one I described due to the cost of the other wet systems.


I hope that helps.. I didn’t mean to sound like a dick earlier, it just frustrates me when people talk about something acting as they know about it and don’t and they don’t even take the time to learn about it..
 

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Thanks for Clearing things up...

Hey, no offense taken from the previous post. I appreciate the knowledge. Until now, I thought NOS applications were just wet or dry. I knew of other apps, but with so much 'buzz' from a few years ago, you just get the redundant 'shop talk' from rookies. No one usually breaks it down enough for the info to stick to the brain. So thanks for the heads up.......

B
 

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N2O or NO2?

not to be a bitch or anything,


but isn't nitrous oxide NO2, not N2O,
i mean just the name, nitrous ox"ide" suggest 2 oxygens not 2 nitrogens.

I probably wrong, but i just wanted to make sure we're all talking about the same thing...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: N2O or NO2?

The valence numbers for Nitrogen is +5, for Oxygen it is +6.
The chemical formula for nitrous oxide is N2O. Yes, it is a strange combination, but that is it. ;)

-Jim

John775 said:
not to be a bitch or anything,
but isn't nitrous oxide NO2, not N2O,
i mean just the name, nitrous ox"ide" suggest 2 oxygens not 2 nitrogens.

I probably wrong, but i just wanted to make sure we're all talking about the same thing...
 

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Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2)
These gases form when fuel is burned at high temperatures, and come principally from motor vehicle exhaust and stationary sources such as electric utilities and industrial boilers.


I have used a NOS(nitrous oxide systems) direct port set up before on my Acura. It is expensive, but you get what you pay for. I also used a Jacobs Mastermind progressive controller. This allows you to control you "shot". I used it to control front wheel spin on launches. It quickly opens and close the solenoids(fuel/N20) and allows you to adjust the rate of injection. I used it because of this and the fact I did not want to destroy my daily driver. Another safety measure that can be used is from MSD is called a window switch. It only allows activation of your set up from certain rpms with "pills". They look like small yellow fuses and are rated at different rpms. This is just a quick look at the direct port set up. I believe there is a good faq on the NOS web page.
John
 

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Re: Re: N2O or NO2?

PlatinumWRX said:
The valence numbers for Nitrogen is +5, for Oxygen it is +6.
The chemical formula for nitrous oxide is N2O. Yes, it is a strange combination, but that is it. ;)

-Jim

Actually, the valence for O is -2, and N has many variations. Two possible reactions to make N2O are:

NH4NO3 ---> N2O + 2(H2O) @ 250C, or

(these two are similar, so I grouped them as one type, if you will)

HNO2 + NH2OH ---> N2O + 2(H2O)

HNO2 + HN3 ---> N2O + N2 + H2O

The first involves a redox type reaction between N-3 and N+4 oxidation states, with the latter two involving reduction of aqueous nitrous acid with either hydroxylamine or hydrogen azide.

BTW, I had to look all this up. Been too long to recall this type of stuff from memory. Those equations could never stay in my head.

John775, the correct IUPAC name is really dinitrogen monoxide, but we generally say "nitrous oxide). NO2 would be nitrogen dioxide.

Rod
 
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