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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
According to this guy!

Long read, and its a forum with no guest viewing, and a registration fee.

CLIFFE NOTES: Sti sucks, lancer is way better!




PRO EVO POSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Dear god...do i need to own everyone in this discussion again?

First of all...

Evolution >> WRX

To all of those saying the lack of electronics makes a dig difference to the cars performance...bull ****.

The Group-N Mitsubishi Evolution RS DOESNT HAVE AYC! Its not allowed under the rules for Group-N. And msot of the RS's run in the Group-N caragory dont use the active center diff, but instead choose a viscous center diff for its liniar operation, and durability. The GSR's 6 speed is not the most robust tranny ever, but it is quite durable. However, the Evo RS's 5 speed is BULLIT PROOF! The JUN Evolution VI pushing nearly 650 BHP TO THE WHEELS(!!!) is running on a BONE STOCK RS 5 speed gearbox. Compare that to the number of stripped 2nd gears, even on the underpowered USDM WRX.
Now, consider this...the Goup-N cars dont have the fancy electronics...and the Group-N catagory is as close to off the showroom floor racing as you can get...and what car has dominated the catagory for the last 5 years? The Lancer Evolution. No if the lancer is capable of dominating the Group-N catagory in the WRC, and be the only make of car to finish in the 1998 Safari Rally in its catagory...why are we even discussing weither or not its road reliability is up to snuff. IMHO, there is no question that the car will be reliable.

Seconedly...you people are ****ing idiots if you think that just becuase the engien shares the same letters (4G63) as the DSM engine, that it suffers the same crank walk and bottom end problems. WRONG! For crying out loud the ****ing thing doesnt even spin the same way, and the block castings are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! In other words there is no way you could put an EVO motor in a DSM (unless its an EVO-I or EVO-II), or vice versa. THe Evoultions 4G63 is UNIQUE to the evo, and doesnt suffer from crank walk or bottom end problems like the DSM's.

Now to the WRX STi...the USDM model...well...quite frankly it doesnt even deserve the STi designation. Becuase it doesnt have many of the other components that make it an STi everywhere else int eh world. For example, the engine is differnt (the .5 liters doesnt make it better either...more to come), the suspension is softer, and the brakes are smaller (again, subaru? come on!).
The only real components of the STi that is getting carried over to the US model fromt eh rest of the world is the gearbox...thats it. THe rest of the mechanical components are differnt enough to not have the car carry the name.
Now to the 2.5L engine...its not there for extra HP. And it not going to make the car faster with the old moniker "there is no replacment for displacment". No, saddly, the 2.5L was added for emissions reasons. Basicly they wanted a biffer engine to rely less on boost pressure from the turbo. Less boost = less emisions. Not to mention that a 2.5+L engine has lower emissions requirements then a 2.0L engine. WHich has been a problem for some peopel with WRX in places like california. In adition to adding the displacment to rely less on the turbo, they redesigned thehead with a narrow valve intake tract to increase the lower end punch of the engine without boost. WHich means that as the boost increases the HP will be limited. Add this to the fact that the dynamic load ont eh crank shaft in greater fromt eh larger bore and stroke (in a block that is the same size as the EJ20) and you get a weaker bottom end as well. Overall, what you have is a bigger engine that gets better emissions ratings, and those changes limt the output of the engine.
Plus keep in mind that with the inclusion of a USDM specific motor, that there will be ABSOLUTLY NO JDM SUPPORT for this engine. WHich is somthing MANY a WRX owner has relied on before for parts and other performance needs. It also means that USDM companies will be forced to do the design and development work for the engine. Which will mean that the mods will come out slower, and not as high quality if they had somthing to base it off of. Where as the EVO in this instance, has all the same JDM parts, with the RS tranny, and the GSR suspension, and the base 4G63...Ralli///Art parts are but a importer away.

Another thing you have to look at, is...well...not worth looking at rather, is the numbers. True the STi has a 300 BHP, 300lb. ft. of torque rating. However, the EVO produces torque at lower RPM and mac HP at higher RPM thenteh STi. Which means that the engine has a flatter torque curve, and a flatter torwue curve means that BPU mods will work better, and give more noticable results. Not only that, but if you scale the Torque and HP numbres of the EVO over a graph of the STi, the curves ont eh EVO are far better. All it will take is a couple of SIMPLE mods, and the EVO will be pushing 350 easily. Where as getting 350 out of the STi may prove to be more of a challenge, as the engine limits the performance, and not just intake and exaust chokes. Infact, it wont be to sprising when you see stock WRX's with the EJ20 posting better HP numbers then the STi. THe 2.5L engine simply isnt in the same league as the EJ20.

So there you have it...the EVO has always been faster thent eh WRX, and has always proven itself ont he track to be a far more potent, and reliable machine. And i have no doubt that its release here in the US will be the same.
Just remember, Subaru is still giving you a watered down car, where Mitsubishi is just adding extra weight in the form of 5 MPH bumpers...personally, strictly from a performance and modability standpoint, id take an evo 10 times over the STi...not to mention there will be more evo's avliable, and for alot less money.
.




Someone replied with this
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
PRO STI POSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

don't think the statements about electronics enhancing performance are bull****. My statements are based off the opinions of professional JGTC racers...actual experts in the field of driving. Sorry, but I'm going to have to give their opinions a little more weight in this debate than yours.

I don't know about your Group N comments or what you said about the EVO's 4G63 and gear box reliability or any of that stuff you first mentioned, but why would they use the same engine code if it's a different engine? I don't really know enough about the EVO to judge the truth behind those statements of Grp N competition and use of the viscous center differential. I will mention one thing about the gear box debate: JUN's 600+ ps STi uses the Subaru 6-speed gearbox to handle that power, so it must have some strength.

How exactly do you know the STI's suspension is softer? That the brakes are smaller? That the internals of the engine limit it from gaining big horsepower with later upgrades? We don't even know what kind of turbo or compression the STi will be running, so to hear all these "facts" coming from you is really, quite interesting...hell, we dont' even know how much the damned thing will weigh. You obviously must be some sort of "expert" in this field (or pulling it out of your ass ). With those forged internals, and a completely new block, I highly doubt this motor will suffer from a weaker bottom end than the current EJ20 the USDM WRX gets.

How is the lack of JDM support a bad thing? With American manufacturers like Vishnu, Turbo XS, and Perrin, all companies who spend lots of time and money for R&D, I think the aftermarket will be great. Yes, there will be a wait, but with 300 horses and 300 lbs of torque, I don't think many STi owners will feel the urgency to start adding big power right away. Believe it or not, we Subaru drivers have fun doing more than just 1/4 mile runs

Nobody's seen a power and torque curve of the new STi yet. If people have seen them for the EVO8, then that's a pretty recent development.

You're making a bunch of claims and statements that can't even be backed up right now, which is really taking away from your credibility. Not that your exteremely biased opinion helps with that anyway.

Subaru engineers-> <-Mitsubishi engineers













PRO EVO USER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





For sure they do somthing...HOWEVER...check your history. Just becuase some guy on Best Motoring or Hot Version say whatever about whatever doesnt make it the end all be all. If you take a look, almost all (at least a healty 90%) of Lancer Evolutions in racing today, do NOT utilize the AYC system, or the active center diff. Some do use the active center diff, which is usually the electro-static device from Ralli-Art, not the full electronic one found in the EVO-VII. Of which both, are illeagle in Group-N.
To also add to your debate, you can ask ANYONE on the OT board who has unparaleled WRC engineering knowledge, and most will point at me, and those that dont, will point at Guido The Penguin, who will then point to me. Ive worked on Evo's before, and driven them competitivly. I know a thing or three about their engineering, and the rules behind running them.




So if you dont know anything, and the only thing you have to draw off of is some Bestmotoring, and Hot-Version videos...then why in the hell are you trying to debate this?! As for your bit about the STi 6 speed...the older GC8 STi 6 speed was extremely reliable. So reliable that the new GC9 Impreza STi's often had their 6 speed replaced with the GC8 STi gearbox, becuasr the new ones simply couldent hold out. As for the JUN STi...it had a dogring tranny... i.e. it wasnt stock. THe engine codes are the same becuase it is the same basic design. In trearms of size, volumes, mount points, etc. the engienis the same. However, the internals are completely differnt. With forged components, knife edge crank, light weight pistons, higher flowing head, reinforced block,and larger main bearings. Plus the engien spins the opposite direction. Its a completely differnt engine. Its similar to Toyota and their "4A-GE" While the engine designation is the same...the engine has evolved. And there are virtually no similarties between the 20v 4A-GE, and its original older sibling from the AE-86. Even though both carry the "4A-GE" designation.



Well, ill be telling some of my screts from this little bit...but...whatever. I know two individuals, personally, that work for GM's engineering department. As you know, GM owns Subaru, and Pro-Drive. They work indirectly with Subaru of North America on the STi's planning. They are also have access to the OEM vendors that are supplying the parts (such as brakes and suspension) for the Impreza. And from that information we derived the conclusion, as the part specs are different. Same goes for the engine components. I am NOT however allowed to divulge much information on specifics, becuase doing so could greatly jeprodise some peoples jobs in the R&D department at Subaru North America, and GM. So thats all im going to say...and even that is far to much.

Yes it is a newly designed block...however the internals are not built to the same spec of the JDM EJ20. Stronger...yes...as robust as the EJ20...no.

Yes, lack of JDM support is a bad thing...becuase MANY of the parts that will be avliable for the car will come direct from STi of Japan. And unfortunatly, with the changes to the engine, most of the bolt on performance parts will be all but worthles to a USDM STi owner. Though, things like chassis upgrades should still work...for the most part. And alot fo the US tuners i find to be laughable at best...alot of their R&D i find HIGHLY questionable with what i know as standards in the racing world for years. I just dont buy into teh hype alot of these companies put out.

I have seen torque curves for the new STi engine (engine dyno, not chassis)...and the EVO-VIII's driveline is identicle to that of the EVO-VII RS. So look at one of those graphs for your answer. The ECU mapping, and engine internals are, for the most part, 99% identicle. WIth VERY VERRY minute changes to meet "US emissions".


Claims yes...but give them time. I have no reason to bull**** anyone, just educate them.
And yes...its a fact...i think Subaru sucks...when they can bring out a decent car with the same, or extremely close to JDM specification cars, WITHOUT cutting the handling and braking qualities, and replacing entire systems to meet the needs of the US consumer...then ill gladly support them. Untill then, their faciest comunity, and half ass knock offs for the american market, get no respect from me in teh least.
 

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ok, much better :D i actually understood what was going on this time. personally, i think that guy is just bitter towards subaru for some reason. as long as the STi is not a total piece of crap (how could something that beautiful be crap? haha), which i know it wont be, i will be a very happy man with it...even if the evo responds better to mods. to me, the subie has a certain level of refinement that no mitsu can touch. the whole interior of the evo to me just looks...like an 80's subcompact or something...especially compared to the STi's (gotta love those gauges!). i hope he buys his pre-riced out evo, and loves it. more room for me in line to buy the STi. :p you cant beat the rumble of the boxer. he was saying how the STi will have trouble hitting 350? is he serious? just take off the cats, and im sure youre within striking distance of 350. lets be serious now. (he didnt say whp or crank)...plus yeah the whole deal of not knowing the details of everything. personally, i think hes talking out of his behind. just my .03c
 

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yea, thats my big thing is that I drive an RSX now and it has a nice interior...the evo's int is godawful looking...recaros are nice, but those in particular are ugly and the console is nasty also...coupled with the hideous taillamps and front bumper equals a car that isnt gourgeous... but the evo and sti are about performance not beauty... but if you have both...wouldnt you?? The Evo VII is pretty though.... so I guess the 8 with stock tails and evo7 bumper would be okay... you can switch out the seats and add a dash kit...but if you had recaros... would you really switch them out for Sparcos?

-Shahul
 

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:confused: So wait -- people actually have to pay to read asstard posts like this?
 

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two words for the EVO lover...

"spell checker" <-- use it!
 

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drover said:
:confused: So wait -- people actually have to pay to read asstard posts like this?
hahahha :D

...and yes, the first thing i noticed about this post was the same thing WRXed noticed. you would think supposed "in the know" people would know how to spell better than the 5th grade level. :rolleyes:
 

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:rolleyes: I swear to God I want a property tax refund every time I see stuff like that. It's obviously not being used to educate people, so where the hell is it going?
 

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You know there is nothing wrong with a little competition with other manufacturers as far as AWD turbo goes. Wouldnt it suck if EVERYONE had a porsche 911 turbo, there would be nothing out there to compete with. Besides, let the people who like to move the lips and fingers over a keyboard do their armchair engineering, and we will see when both cars are faced head to head for real in the US. What this butt nugget needs to understand is that SUBARU isnt crap since they were the first company to offer AWD on all their cars standard. And while Subaru gave us the turbocharged rear VLSD WRX for 2002, Mitsubishi gave us the Lancer Oz(nuff said). Aftermarket aside, we can see what manufacturer is delivering what people want, and which manufacturer is just the pretender and trend follower.

chris
 

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Has anyone heard of the new impreza refer as GC9? Just curious since the EVO guy talked about the GC9.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
drover said:
:confused: So wait -- people actually have to pay to read asstard posts like this?
forums.off-topic.net
You can see how big it is, but cant click any threads.
I registerd before the registration fee.
 

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WRX>MUSTANG said:
forums.off-topic.net
You can see how big it is, but cant click any threads.
I registerd before the registration fee.
Heh, that's a relief to hear. ;)
 

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hahaha what a fool I wonder if the tool has driven the cars
or if he's doing magazine test drives :rolleyes:

I personally looked at the evo as well as the STi

so the evo is quicker ... by a bees dick mind you... woohoo :rolleyes:

the evo has to have the most pitifull excuse for an interior this side of a hyundai

The STi interior is pretty nice not as good as many hondas
but good the seat alone make up for the crappy plastic trim

the STi gets a warranty (here in australia)

oh and the number 1 reason the EVO is 20grand more expensive than the STi
 

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i cant stand the EVO's interior....
you pay 35,000 for a car that looks like a 12,000 car on the inside....
i mean hyundai's have better interior then evo's.....

mitsubishi needs to step up,
the subaru has way better interior, but it could also be better too. then again these arent luxuary cars
 
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