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Discussion Starter #1
Now, this isn't a kill by any means, but more of an answer to a question about the Stage 3 Audi S4's that I have read so much about..


I have been curious for the longest time as to how much HP a Stage 3 S4 puts down to the wheels... Never found any info in the Audi forums, but did find dyno pictures from the manufacturers of these kits, which show 420 (94octane)-450(100octane)HP at the crank.

I found the answer, and it ain't as much as you might think, for as long as you might think....;)

I found the answer to that question over at NASIOC of all places, from a post made by Shiv of Vishnu:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=283184&perpage=25&highlight=shiv and porsche and audi&pagenumber=3

The link shows a thread about ecutek, with the dyno figures of the Stage 3 S4 on the dyno verus the Porsche 911 turbo (stock) on Shiv's Dynodynamics dyno...

Seems that they might no be making 420HP afterall at the crank... They actually make 20whp more than a tuned VF30 TBXS Stage 4 or VS2 car, which equates to 360HP at the crank on the dyno dynamics.

As you can see, the dyno sheets show the Stage3 S4 and a 415HP Porsche 911 Turbo on the dyno. The 911, with 415Hp from the factory puts down a good chunk more WHP than the 420HP S4.

The most eye-opening part of all of this is how much power the S4 cars drop after repeated runs on the dyno... Down to Vishnu Stage 0 levels of HP after just a few runs, which in iteself does not make too much more than 200whp on a Dynodynamics dyno
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

So perhaps the next time you come across a Stage 3 S4, you should not be so timid to give it a few runs... You might lose the first, and second race, but the more runs you ask for, the better your chances are of winning:D

Now, I'm off to go Stage 3 S4 hunting:)
 

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I'll admit that I'm hardly an S4 Stage 3 guru, but a one car, one kit, sample group is hardly indicative of all Stage 3 cars.

I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, but the sample group needs to be larger and would need to accomodate the various kits before you can safely draw any conclusions about all Stage 3 cars.

Right?
 

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actually the power curve of the S4 is way more impressive than a stage IV scoobie....you might end up getting hunted depending on your actual mods/state of tune....if you're a basic stage 4 the Stage 3 S4 will molest you like your name was Lolita
 

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So perhaps the next time you come across a Stage 3 S4, you should not be so timid to give it a few runs... You might lose the first, and second race, but the more runs you ask for, the better your chances are of winning
I think that the WRX will also suffer from heat soaking and will loose hp like the S4 does.
 

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jigga said:
Now, this isn't a kill by any means, but more of an answer to a question about the Stage 3 Audi S4's that I have read so much about..


I have been curious for the longest time as to how much HP a Stage 3 S4 puts down to the wheels... Never found any info in the Audi forums, but did find dyno pictures from the manufacturers of these kits, which show 420 (94octane)-450(100octane)HP at the crank.

I found the answer, and it ain't as much as you might think, for as long as you might think....;)

I found the answer to that question over at NASIOC of all places, from a post made by Shiv of Vishnu:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=283184&perpage=25&highlight=shiv and porsche and audi&pagenumber=3

The link shows a thread about ecutek, with the dyno figures of the Stage 3 S4 on the dyno verus the Porsche 911 turbo (stock) on Shiv's Dynodynamics dyno...

Seems that they might no be making 420HP afterall at the crank... They actually make 20whp more than a tuned VF30 TBXS Stage 4 or VS2 car, which equates to 360HP at the crank on the dyno dynamics.

As you can see, the dyno sheets show the Stage3 S4 and a 415HP Porsche 911 Turbo on the dyno. The 911, with 415Hp from the factory puts down a good chunk more WHP than the 420HP S4.

The most eye-opening part of all of this is how much power the S4 cars drop after repeated runs on the dyno... Down to Vishnu Stage 0 levels of HP after just a few runs, which in iteself does not make too much more than 200whp on a Dynodynamics dyno
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

So perhaps the next time you come across a Stage 3 S4, you should not be so timid to give it a few runs... You might lose the first, and second race, but the more runs you ask for, the better your chances are of winning:D

Now, I'm off to go Stage 3 S4 hunting:)
Congratulations you just found the weak spot of the audi : Heat Soake :rolleyes:
 

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Re: Re: Ever wonder what whp a 420HP Stage 3 S4 really has???

audirs6 said:
Congratulations you just found the weak spot of the audi : Heat Soake :rolleyes:
They are also overpriced, heavy, and continuously ranked under all the japanese manufacturers for reliability. And to tell you the truth, the power curve of that S4 is weak. It loses serious power as the rpm climb. I would bet a properly tuned stage4 rex takes that heavy pig. :rolleyes:

-BobbyD
 

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Discussion Starter #7
SLOW4EAT said:
actually the power curve of the S4 is way more impressive than a stage IV scoobie....you might end up getting hunted depending on your actual mods/state of tune....if you're a basic stage 4 the Stage 3 S4 will molest you like your name was Lolita
The power curve is impressive no doubt..That is not what my point was though, but I found it very interesting that even on the race gas, none of the cars tested were able to drop as much as the 911 turbo, which is claimed as having 415HP from the factory
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Re: Re: Ever wonder what whp a 420HP Stage 3 S4 really has???

audirs6 said:
Congratulations you just found the weak spot of the audi : Heat Soake :rolleyes:

If you read what Shiv had to say on the thread, you will see that heatsoak alone was not the explanation of why the S4's numbers dropped off so quickly.

all turbo cars will suffer from heatsoak to some extent. I wasn't my intention to find out the weakness of any car out there... All have some...

I have just always been very curious as to what a Stage 3 S4 puts to the wheels.. Up until now, all that was out there was from the manufacturers of the kits... not exactly the best place to get the info.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: Re: Ever wonder what whp a 420HP Stage 3 S4 really has???

Griswold said:
I'll admit that I'm hardly an S4 Stage 3 guru, but a one car, one kit, sample group is hardly indicative of all Stage 3 cars.

I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right, but the sample group needs to be larger and would need to accomodate the various kits before you can safely draw any conclusions about all Stage 3 cars.

Right?
Yes, you are absolutely correct! This definitely the end all and be all of stage 3 S4 numbers.. The components used on the cars was indicative of the Stage 3 packages of the other well-known tuners out there, if what I read was correct.

There are Stage 4 WRXs out there that put out much less power than they are capable of for quite a few reasons... Most of the time though, this is due to tuning, or lack thereof - Utec/ECutek, etc

If my research serves me correctly, most of the Audi crowd run with pre-programmed software programs which they can download into their ecu's, and do not have the ability to self-tune in the manner that a UTEC or Ecutek allows. They appear to be basically off-the shelf maps from the tuners, and as we all know, are not the best for performance since they must take so many factors into consideration.

Maybe if APR ot GIAC or whichever company personally dynotunes the car, the 420+HP can be realised, but probably not with the off-the-shelf maps...

The thread I posted has Shiv (Vishnu Performance) discussing into detail the problem faced (tuning-wise) by all of the Stage 3 S4's that turned up for the free dyno run. This included the cars running 91, 94, and 110 octane maps.

It wasn't my intention to come accross that they are slow or anything... Far from it... Any WRX will need a good modlist to compare with one. I simply wanted to get an idea of what these cars are actually putting down to the wheels in a real world scenario. It IS more than your average tuned Stage 4 wrx, no doubt about that, but not out of reach, with a what is currently out there in the aftermarket.

Irregardless of what a tuned S4 puts to the wheels though, I thought that the posts which were directed to the S4 made a very interesting read, perhaps more because of the aura of mystery that surrounds these Stage 3 cars...
 

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Re: Re: Re: Ever wonder what whp a 420HP Stage 3 S4 really has???

jigga said:
If you read what Shiv had to say on the thread, you will see that heatsoak alone was not the explanation of why the S4's numbers dropped off so quickly.

all turbo cars will suffer from heatsoak to some extent. I wasn't my intention to find out the weakness of any car out there... All have some...

I have just always been very curious as to what a Stage 3 S4 puts to the wheels.. Up until now, all that was out there was from the manufacturers of the kits... not exactly the best place to get the info.
BTW Some speed shop dynoed a modded S4 and did 5 runs: One was 330 by the time of the 5th it was down to 300 they sprayed a I/C Mist kit and dynoed again and got the full 330 whp (thats without waiting to get cooled of) That proofs the drop in dyno numbers is all from the heat soake.

That doesnt make a difference S4 stage 3 are fast. a wrx may have a advantage if the guy raced 3 times. But the wrx will have to have alot of power for example lets say a stage 3 s4 traps at 112 mph with all the heat soake it will probably go down to 105-108 mph 105 being the most it will go down. Dont forget wrx has some heat soake too.

And also the 911 puts down more whp then an S4 that doesnt mean the S4 doesnt have the 420 hp at the crank. Some cars will put out more whp then others the obvious reason is that manufactures underate it.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Ever wonder what whp a 420HP Stage 3 S4 really has???

BobbyD said:
They are also overpriced, heavy, and continuously ranked under all the japanese manufacturers for reliability. And to tell you the truth, the power curve of that S4 is weak. It loses serious power as the rpm climb. I would bet a properly tuned stage4 rex takes that heavy pig. :rolleyes:

-BobbyD
Overpriced? yes ! But worth it ;)
Weak power curve? No not at all.
And loses serious power as the rpm climb up? No way exactly the oppisite. Obviously you havent seen a dyno graph on the S4.
And heavy pig? It probably could go on a diet
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ever wonder what whp a 420HP Stage 3 S4 really has???

audirs6 said:

And also the 911 puts down more whp then an S4 that doesnt mean the S4 doesnt have the 420 hp at the crank. Some cars will put out more whp then others the obvious reason is that manufactures underate it.
True, but when you consider that there is a 60WHP difference between what the 911 makes and the S3 S4 makes at the wheels (on a DynoDynamics dyno which reads low), there must be some serious underrating going on..... or some serious overrating going on...Browsing through the Rennlist and other porsche forums, I can't find anything about the 911's being seriously underrated from the factory. Both cars do have AWD drivetrains afterall right?

I am not by any means saying that these numbers are not impressive... They Are... Perhaps the "420HP" figure was arrived at by simply applying the ol' percentage rule to a dynojet whp figure they achieved... Using that mentality, then yes...the 911 Turbo is grossly underrated from the factory, since 330whp on a dynodynamics is closer to 400whp on a dynojet. Applying the rule to the 911Turbo (20% loss), we end up pretty close to 500HP at the crank.

My guess is that these Stage 3 S4's make more like 380HP to the crank, just like the Audi RS4. Looking at the specs of the RS4, they are pretty much identical (trap-speed wise in the 1/4mile).

http://www.fast-autos.net/audi/audirs4.html

Remember that over there, cars are tested with full tank of gas and 2 people in the car.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
jawbrkr said:
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/1697677.phtml

a little something my friend gave me when i showed him this thread.
Yes, I have come across that dyno sheet in my travels in their forum.. It was one of the FEW sheets I could find with a Stage 3 car...

But that is a Stage 3 car with extras though would you not say? IIRC, Camshafts, headwork, the turbos used by that owner on his car are not part of the off the shelf Stage 3 package offered by companies like APR. IIRC, they use the turbos that come stock on the Audi RS4.

I had tried to do a bit of research since I am impressed by these cars, and am curious as to why there isn't so much more info on their power levels even on their own forums. I am just not sure why..
 
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