06 wrx boost issue 5th gear
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This is a discussion on 06 wrx boost issue 5th gear within the Tuning: Electronic Engine Management forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; So my car has been doing this for a while, not sure what's causing it, can't remember if it has ...

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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    06 wrx boost issue 5th gear

    So my car has been doing this for a while, not sure what's causing it, can't remember if it has always done it or not.

    So, in 5th gear, from 2000 rpms on up, if you mash the throttle down suddenly and hold it, you get a "boost surge" to 17psi, the a taper down low, then a surge, then a taper, then it surges back and holds steady. Only happens down low in 5th, no other gears.

    Also, doesn't seem to happen or as noticeably when the ambient temp is below 75 deg. Today when the vid was shot it was super hot, 100deg which is when it is the worst.

    If instead of WOT you roll to part throttle boost, it'll build 5 lbs and hold steady till red line.

    Again only happens in 5th, I hit boost targets in all other gears. Also only an issue when you roll on from a low RPM in 5th as well.

    Mods:

    Stock turbo (still in great shape)
    Stage 2 protune (done in 07)
    Full TBE with CATCO CAT
    Stock BCS
    Large TMIC
    Stock intake
    Stock BPV
    Stock catless UP


    Car is super sound mechanically, with newer clutch, timing belt change, etc.

    Only thing I have never done is removed and cleaned the TB.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbQgHJWQb2o


    Any ideas??
    2014 Ford Fiesta ST

    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    Anybody?

    FWIW if you roll on above 3k rpms it doesnt seem to do it.
    2014 Ford Fiesta ST

    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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    Moderator Donkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06wrx4me View Post
    So my car has been doing this for a while, not sure what's causing it, can't remember if it has always done it or not.

    So, in 5th gear, from 2000 rpms on up, if you mash the throttle down suddenly and hold it, you get a "boost surge" to 17psi, the a taper down low, then a surge, then a taper, then it surges back and holds steady. Only happens down low in 5th, no other gears.
    Adjusting the wastegate arm might help. I would start with half a turn in. This is generally due to not having per gear WGDC compensations like some other vehicles/boost control systems have.


    Quote Originally Posted by 06wrx4me View Post

    If instead of WOT you roll to part throttle boost, it'll build 5 lbs and hold steady till red line.
    Without seeing the boost tables on the map pretty much sounds like thats how the car was tuned. The boost control system uses throttle position and rpm as the "X & Y" axis' on the primary WGDC table.
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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    On adjusting the arm, by "in" do you mean adjust it 1 half turn so that the arm becomes "shorter".

    Also:

    I've got my AP V2 updated so it can datalog, but I never have. Would that info be useful, and if so what parameters should I log?

    I have Cobbs ATR, but I have never used it, and my tuner locked my map when he made it as a CYA thing back in 2007 and all this stuff was in its infancy. I contacted him, he says he no longer locks them, and that hed look to see if he still had a copy of my map, but he can't promise anything.

    Other than that 1 issue in 5th gear, the car runs great, no issues. Currently has 100,xxx miles on it.
    2014 Ford Fiesta ST

    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06wrx4me
    I've got my AP V2 updated so it can datalog, but I never have. Would that info be useful, and if so what parameters should I log?
    Boost (PSI)
    TD Boost Error
    Wastegate Duty Cycle
    Turbo Dynamics Proportional
    Turbo Dynamics Integral
    Engine Speed (RPM)
    Throttle Opening Angle
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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxHt...it?usp=sharing
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxHt...it?usp=sharing


    2 logs from tonight. Ambient was 88deg. Log starts in 5th gear at 60-62 mph. I go WOT and hold, then lift at the end of the log. The feedback knock has me worried
    Last edited by 06wrx4me; 07-19-2013 at 10:28 PM.
    2014 Ford Fiesta ST

    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    I can take a look when I get home
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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    I can take a look when I get home
    Thanks.
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    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06wrx4me
    Thanks.
    I forgot about this thread when I got home. Tonight...
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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Sorry again about not getting back to you last night, Jeremy...

    Standard boost oscillation, bud. You can see it in the Boost Error / TD / WGDC table. Basically, because you're going WOT in 5th gear, it's causing you to overshoot your target boost. Your tuner isn't targetting 16PSI @ 2600 RPMs. The ECU recognizes it, and pulls WGDC causing boost to drop. You then get below target, and you'll see WGDC being added back in.

    As a general rule, you shouldn't peg the gas in a high gear because this is what will result, since we don't have per-gear logic tables like some newer ECUs do. So, you tune the car for a particular gear as best you can, in your case third. In the future, downshift when you want to accelerate from cruise in 5th.

    Likely, the cause of the knock is from hitting untuned RPM/Load sites (Ignition Timing tables use that as X/Y axis). I doubt your tuner pegged the throttle in 5th gear from 2K RPMs, so the cells were never touched. If you wanted to get that worked out, do another log that includes RPM and Engine Load along with Feedback, Fine Learned, and DAM parameters, so we know where in the table you're having an issue. That's only relevant if you can get an unlocked version of your map from your tuner (who was it, by the way? PM me if you're not comfortable mentioning them in the thread).

    I believe the best course of action from here on out is to not hit the throttle in 5th gear (downshift, instead), but I would do some overall logs in both third and fourth gear to make sure everything is in line. Log the following:
    Boost
    TD Boost Error
    Wastegate Duty Cycle
    DAM
    Feedback Knock
    Fine Learning/Learned Knock
    Ignition Timing
    RPM
    Engine Load
    Throttle Position

    That list is ordered, if you can do it that way. I like to order the similar parameters next to each other when I do it, so it's easier to parse through. 1-3 (Boost) / 4-7 (Timing) / 8-10 (X&Y) are paired parameters.

    For third gear, do 2K-redline. For fourth gear, do 2K-as far into the RPM band as you can. Typically, 4000-4500 RPMs is enough to get you a balance of useful information / reasonable speed. I typically try to get both gears from people to make sure that I balance response in third, while not getting into an overshoot / oscillation situation in fourth.
    Last edited by EJ257; 07-21-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    Hey thanks for the reply! I feel a lot better now (the answer I was hoping for)!

    The tuner is/was DBtuned which is now FW Motorsports here in Rocklin, CA. Paul is a veteran who served in one of the sand pits over there in infantry. Saw a lot of messed up stuff as most those guys do. Opened his business as DBtuned in a small industrial shop complex by himself. Grew his business pretty well, bought/expanded to a new shop and hired several Iraq/Afgan vets to wrench on Subi's. When he moved to the new building he changed the name to FW (Fallen Warrior) Motorsports. Last I talked to them, they were working on a GD Sti based Time Attack Car with all the names of the members of the armed forces that have lost there lives in Iraq/Afgan incorporated into a camo wrap for the car. I believe the slogan on the side is going to be "We Race for Them" or something to that affect.

    Anyways car was tuned in 3rd on a 60 deg ambient day. I believe it had 25,000ish miles on it when it was tuned, it now has 100,xxx ish.

    I have had 0 issues since it was tuned in 2006/2007 and rarely go WOT in 5th gear, but I had noticed that a little hiccup occurred when I did go WOT in 5th. So like a kid with a scab, I had been picking at it. I was approaching the whole thing more as a "What is mechanically wrong" cause the car is 7 years old and has 100,000 miles on it. I didn't know if perhaps something had failed, that I need to replace.

    I will do those other logs as well tonight and post back up.

    Thanks again.
    2014 Ford Fiesta ST

    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Agreed with Matty. Standard boost oscillation.

    They are tough to work out sometimes. As donkey said, per gear wastegate controls help. They may or may not be defined for your car in the openSource world. No idea about Cobb.

    In my opinion, you shouldn't really need per gear tables, however. If you are familiar with PIDs - the Subaru boost control system is just a PI (with no D). I haven't had an issue widening up my integral ('long term') boost control to allow the car to compensate in higher gears. The trick is to prevent the car from 'winding up' the integral correction while it's actual boost is building and the target boost is high.

    Tuning a PID is kinda a black magic though, it takes a lot of time and patience. It is very specific to your vehicle and setup. I didn't dig through your logs, but it appears one way or another that it is due to your tune. I'd contact your tuner if it's a Cobb based map.
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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264
    my opinion, you shouldn't really need per gear tables, however. If you are familiar with PIDs - the Subaru boost control system is just a PI (with no D). I haven't had an issue widening up my integral ('long term') boost control to allow the car to compensate in higher gears. The trick is to prevent the car from 'winding up' the integral correction while it's actual boost is building and the target boost is high.

    Tuning a PID is kinda a black magic though, it takes a lot of time and patience. It is very specific to your vehicle and setup. I didn't dig through your logs, but it appears one way or another that it is due to your tune. I'd contact your tuner if it's a Cobb based map.
    Jeremy mentioned it's been 75K miles since the initial tune; that's a bit long to go back and ask for a "fix" (IMO). Besides, I just would avoid going WOT in the cruise gear. Make sure 3rd/4th gear logs are in-line, and leave it be (if it is); just downshift if you need to accelerate.
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    Resident meany-rator 06wrx4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    Jeremy mentioned it's been 75K miles since the initial tune; that's a bit long to go back and ask for a "fix" (IMO). Besides, I just would avoid going WOT in the cruise gear. Make sure 3rd/4th gear logs are in-line, and leave it be (if it is); just downshift if you need to accelerate.
    Yeah its been 6+ years and 75k miles. As I mentioned above, I was more curious if I had a mechanical issue, i.e. TPS problem, MAF problem, BCS problem, crud buildup in the TB (still haven't taken the TB off and cleaned it with CRC top end cleaner), etc.

    I'm ok with just using 3rd and 4th, which I do most of the time anyways, I had just noticed this was happening when it was hotter ambient, when I was being lazy in traffic on the way home. Beings that my car has hit the 100,000 mile mark and I have performed a mountain of maintenance in the last 15,000 miles, I was just curious if there was something I had neglected.

    In the last 15k miles I have:

    * Changed the clutch
    * changed the fuel filter
    * Changed the timing belt
    * Changed the spark plugs
    * Changed the entire suspension
    * Changed the motor mounts
    * Changed the battery
    2014 Ford Fiesta ST

    06 WRX, HAWKEYE # 001 <T-boned and sold>

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