Beat to death OTS map question...
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This is a discussion on Beat to death OTS map question... within the Tuning: Electronic Engine Management forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Ok I know this has been beat to death. But bare with me. I've been researching the difference between cobb ...

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    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    Exclamation Beat to death OTS map question...

    Ok I know this has been beat to death. But bare with me. I've been researching the difference between cobb and perrin stage 2 OTS maps. Now I've searched every thread on every forum I can find about this subject. And everyone seems about 50/50 split. I'm ordering a downpipe and intake but I'm not sure which companies map to go with. Obviously I need to pick one before I can order certain parts(namely the intake)

    Those of you who have had those companies maps. Are the Perrin maps truly more powerful as I've read? If we're talking about a ~5-8 hp difference then I don't care either way I guess. But some people make it out to be that perrin OTS maps make like 20+ more whp and are smoother than a cobb stage 2. This doesn't seem possible to me but I have to ask before dropping $600 on an AP.

    Also on a related note. I was all for getting the cobb downpipe. But then I noticed that it necks down to 2.5" where it connects to the catback. Will this pose any lost hp when using a stage 2 OTS map? I am going to hook whatever downpipe up to the stock catback until I can afford the 1g most catbacks cost. Really like cobbs build quality but dunno about the 2.5" connection
    Last edited by EndlessSea; 02-01-2013 at 09:50 PM. Reason: keepin it civil

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Re: Beat to death OTS map question...

    I don't know of many that would push open source over cobb to the general populace around here. Both of them have their place.

    On topic, it seems to depend on which map fits your specific car better. If you are considering the Perrin maps, I would order the AP off of Perrin. Just because you got it from Perrin doesn't mean you can't download the Cobb maps and try them out.

    Just do me a favor and after you flash any OTS map, learn to do some logging to verify everything is okay with it

    Down pipe wise.. I wouldn't be concerned. If you are shooting for big numbers down the road, you'll probably replace it with 3" the full way. The air cools off pretty rapidly at that point, is hence more dense, and requires less diameter to freely flow. At your power, I wouldn't expect a difference. If you want to leave the option open, get a 3" and the 3" to stock adapter from grimspeed.
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    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Dyno tuned > Torqued Performance > Perrin > Cobb

    I have done them all but dyno tuned. Cobb was my first try and i bought an AP from Perrin so i got the free perrin tune (back in 2009). Cobb seems to clean up the factory tune and improve the power band a little. Perrin does the same but they must have been a little more aggressive (butt dyno). The cobb tune was smoother than the perrin but the perrin seemed more aggressive. Then i went OS and got the TP tune never looked back. It feels smooth and clean like the cobb but pulls like the perrin tune without the small bumps through acceleration.
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    I would assume it all depends on how your car takes the map. Every car is different.. I think it comes down to whether your car responds more similar to the car Cobb created their map on, or the car Perrin used to create their map.

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    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    I would assume it all depends on how your car takes the map. Every car is different.. I think it comes down to whether your car responds more similar to the car Cobb created their map on, or the car Perrin used to create their map.
    For the most part every car will react the same. Modern engines are built to spec and the bigger impact on performance will what down pipe you pick not whether you got the car on the left or right. There might be 5-10 hp difference between cars mostly due to break in style. Cobbs maps are known to be the tamest of all the OTS maps.
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    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    thank you guys for the quick responses. did not even cross my mind that if i order a Cobb AP from Perrin, its still a cobb product and ill be able to try both maps and see what i like better.....

    im not to concerned with having to change the dp in the future for bigger mods. as most rotated kits ive seen require a completely different downpipe anyways. i was just concerned about power loss at a stage 2 setup. which ill likely stay at for the better part of the next 5-7 years.

    at >300whp i dont think 2.5" will hurt anything just wanted to get some opinions before i pull the trigger.

    EDIT: i wasnt trying to knock OS tuning in any way. ive just looked through probably 50 or so of these kinds of threads and every one has some guy that has to throw in his opinion about going OS even when the OP's thread has nothing to do with opensource. just trying to avoid confusion and stay on topic for anyone else looking at this thread in the future. its frustrating finding the exact thread your needing only to realize every response says. "follow my sig" "go opensource" "get a tactrix cable" etc. but not a single person answers the original question lol
    Last edited by EndlessSea; 02-01-2013 at 07:21 PM.

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    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    Dyno tuned > Torqued Performance > Perrin > Cobb

    I have done them all but dyno tuned. Cobb was my first try and i bought an AP from Perrin so i got the free perrin tune (back in 2009). Cobb seems to clean up the factory tune and improve the power band a little. Perrin does the same but they must have been a little more aggressive (butt dyno). The cobb tune was smoother than the perrin but the perrin seemed more aggressive. Then i went OS and got the TP tune never looked back. It feels smooth and clean like the cobb but pulls like the perrin tune without the small bumps through acceleration.
    question about Torqued performance. ive heard of them but have no real experience or knowledge. they are a legitimate shop? i checked their website and their maps are $85. not bad but they dont sell the AP themselves with a map of theirs included? ie i have to buy the AP from cobb then spend another $85 for their map. if its a good jump over cobb/perrin i dont have a problem doing it but if i could get the AP/map as a cheaper package from them that would be awesome as well!

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    and the Funky Bunch Calvinball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessSea View Post
    question about Torqued performance. ive heard of them but have no real experience or knowledge. they are a legitimate shop? i checked their website and their maps are $85. not bad but they dont sell the AP themselves with a map of theirs included? ie i have to buy the AP from cobb then spend another $85 for their map. if its a good jump over cobb/perrin i dont have a problem doing it but if i could get the AP/map as a cheaper package from them that would be awesome as well!
    You buy a Tactrix adapter then TP's map. The cable, new, is something like $170/$180 new IIRC. Then you add in the map price. You need a laptop to complete the equation.

    So it ends up being much cheaper than an Accessport if you already have a laptop. But there are pros and cons to both.
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    For the most part every car will react the same. Modern engines are built to spec and the bigger impact on performance will what down pipe you pick not whether you got the car on the left or right. There might be 5-10 hp difference between cars mostly due to break in style. Cobbs maps are known to be the tamest of all the OTS maps.

    If that were the case, then how do you explain why some cars knock like crazy on a Cobb stage one map and some don't? Same with stage two. And same make/model cars with identical mods, some over boost a ton and others not at all? And how would you explain same year model stock STis putting down anywhere between 200whp and 230whp on the same dyno under very similar atmospheric conditions ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    For the most part every car will react the same. Modern engines are built to spec and the bigger impact on performance will what down pipe you pick not whether you got the car on the left or right. There might be 5-10 hp difference between cars mostly due to break in style. Cobbs maps are known to be the tamest of all the OTS maps.
    I was gonna say somewhere to the same of mainframe's last post. My car didn't like the stage 2 OTS map to much. But my buddy's car loved it. OTS maps are safe and one-sized fits all, but every car doesn't like it.

    To the op, I'd get the Cobb from Perrin since you want to see how their maps are. You could always get cobbs maps from their website.
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    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calvinball View Post
    You buy a Tactrix adapter then TP's map. The cable, new, is something like $170/$180 new IIRC. Then you add in the map price. You need a laptop to complete the equation.

    So it ends up being much cheaper than an Accessport if you already have a laptop. But there are pros and cons to both.
    On their website it shows accessport maps. Can I not use an accessport to apply those or is that still a taxtric cable/laptop situation?

    also are the torqued OS maps the same thing as their AP map minus the $600 AP? im familiar with the AP which is why i was going to go that route anyways. but if im going with a TP tune and the OS maps are safe then i dont see why i shouldnt save myself $400 and but a tactrix instead of an AP.
    Last edited by EndlessSea; 02-01-2013 at 09:51 PM.

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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessSea View Post
    On their website it shows accessport maps. Can I not use an accessport to apply those or is that still a taxtric cable/laptop situation?

    also are the torqued OS maps the same thing as their AP map minus the $600 AP? im familiar with the AP which is why i was going to go that route anyways. but if im going with a TP tune and the OS maps are safe then i dont see why i shouldnt save myself $400 and but a tactrix instead of an AP.

    I believe Eric makes maps both for OS and AP, just depends on what you want to use to flash your car. The maps should be identical. . The difference is do you want to pay $600 for basically a mini laptop that can only do one thing (the AP), or do you want to pay $200 for a cable and just use your existing laptop that can be used for more than just flashing maps and logging.

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    Registered User SubiEj255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    I believe Eric makes maps both for OS and AP, just depends on what you want to use to flash your car. The maps should be identical. . The difference is do you want to pay $600 for basically a mini laptop that can only do one thing (the AP), or do you want to pay $200 for a cable and just use your existing laptop that can be used for more than just flashing maps and logging.
    This is the simplicity of it, but it's hard for ppl to use tactrix.
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    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    If that were the case, then how do you explain why some cars knock like crazy on a Cobb stage one map and some don't? Same with stage two. And same make/model cars with identical mods, some over boost a ton and others not at all? And how would you explain same year model stock STis putting down anywhere between 200whp and 230whp on the same dyno under very similar atmospheric conditions ..
    Well first cite your sources of cars knocking like crazy. If this is true then where are these cars located? The Cobb maps are the tamest of all the OTS maps.

    As for the STis show me the quality of the fuel they used, oil change history, beak-in style, mileage, mods, oils in the transmission... All these things together will take away from overall power differently in the end. As a meteorologist i know much more about atmospheric conditions than you and i guarantee you that if the cars were not dynoed within an hour of each other the conditions where not the same. While the temperature might be the same the actual pressure which is what will affect power could be completely different. Those 2 STis throwing down different numbers, give me the dates and location and i can get you the atmospheric conditions (pressure and temp). Unless you have some of the basic information above your argument is unsupported.

    I honestly hope Subaru isn't building modern cars so far off spec that the cars have a 30hp differences off the factory floor because if that's the case i don't want my car due to the companies poor building standards.
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    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessSea View Post
    On their website it shows accessport maps. Can I not use an accessport to apply those or is that still a taxtric cable/laptop situation?

    also are the torqued OS maps the same thing as their AP map minus the $600 AP? im familiar with the AP which is why i was going to go that route anyways. but if im going with a TP tune and the OS maps are safe then i dont see why i shouldnt save myself $400 and but a tactrix instead of an AP.
    Yes if they have AP maps you can buy the map load it on the AP and load it to the car like you would a Cobb map. TP (with OS maps, not sure about AP maps) will take your logs and tweak the map for you also. You have to log a few pulls and email them the logs and they will email you back a tweaked map for your car.... not a dyno tune but better than any OTS map.
    2009 WRX - Catted DP, Torqued performance stage 2
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