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This is a discussion on Beat to death OTS map question... within the Tuning: Electronic Engine Management forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by wrx1234 Well first cite your sources of cars knocking like crazy. If this is true then where ...

  1. #16
    OMG WTF MainFrame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    Well first cite your sources of cars knocking like crazy. If this is true then where are these cars located? The Cobb maps are the tamest of all the OTS maps.

    Simple enough.. ClubWRX.net: Subaru Impreza WRX and WRX STI Online Community and Forums Apparently you haven't been looking at new member's data logs recently.


    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    As for the STis show me the quality of the fuel they used, oil change history, beak-in style, mileage, mods, oils in the transmission... All these things together will take away from overall power differently in the end.

    These are NEW cars I'm talking about. Running the same 93 octane fuel from the gas station in front of the shop. Oil change history is moot, as they are NEW cars. Mileage is usually between 1000 and 6000 miles. The transmission oil is the same oil Subaru puts in every new car from the factory.


    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    I honestly hope Subaru isn't building modern cars so far off spec that the cars have a 30hp differences off the factory floor because if that's the case i don't want my car due to the companies poor building standards.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Subaru doesn't build magical cars that all respond the exact same to the same tune. They're just like any other car manufacturer..

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    OMG WTF MainFrame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubiEj255 View Post
    This is the simplicity of it, but it's hard for ppl to use tactrix.

    I don't see why. I had absolutely no trouble flashing with open source. I had always heard AP was easier, but I recently had my first experience flashing with an AP and the steps were identical to flashing with OpenECU. You still have to plug in the flash connector, and you still have to put it in test mode, turn key, and hit the button at the right time. The only difference I can see is that you have to install the software on your laptop, where as the AP comes with the software already installed.

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    For the most part every car will react the same. Modern engines are built to spec and the bigger impact on performance will what down pipe you pick not whether you got the car on the left or right. There might be 5-10 hp difference between cars mostly due to break in style. Cobbs maps are known to be the tamest of all the OTS maps.
    Strongly disagree. In the exact same conditions and brand new off the lot, I'd bet it would be close. Still not exact.

    In the real world, not at all. Outside of mechanical tolerances (which start to build up... some of which are so far off that they turn into what is commonly known as a broken part), temp/pressure change by location as well as weather. Various tunes will fit various cars differently - it makes sense and has been shown time and time again by varied results on various off the shelf tunes.

    Otherwise, what would be the purpose of a dyno tune as you have suggested? An OTS tune could be made to be exactly on par with a dyno tune if all cars reacted the same.
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  5. #19
    Registered User SubiEj255's Avatar
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    My car hated the OTS maps from Cobb so I'm an example.
    A car is only as good as its driver

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    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    Simple enough.. ClubWRX.net: Subaru Impreza WRX and WRX STI Online Community and Forums Apparently you haven't been looking at new member's data logs recently.





    These are NEW cars I'm talking about. Running the same 93 octane fuel from the gas station in front of the shop. Oil change history is moot, as they are NEW cars. Mileage is usually between 1000 and 6000 miles. The transmission oil is the same oil Subaru puts in every new car from the factory.





    Sorry to burst your bubble, but Subaru doesn't build magical cars that all respond the exact same to the same tune. They're just like any other car manufacturer..

    Well i see no proof just a story of two cars you could have made up... Where are the dyno sheets? What were the dates? You quoted everything but where i state im a meteorologist and that the atmospheric conditions over a short period can change drastically leading to a 20+ hp difference in a single car on the same dyno. If you don't post some sort of proof or evidence then your arguments have no support. If you are going to make another reply with "my friends brothers sisters uncle told me so..." then don't bother.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubiEj255 View Post
    My car hated the OTS maps from Cobb so I'm an example.
    So a car that hates an OTS map reacts in what way? did you make any logs? were you over-boosting? not hitting peak boost? knocking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
    Strongly disagree. In the exact same conditions and brand new off the lot, I'd bet it would be close. Still not exact.

    In the real world, not at all. Outside of mechanical tolerances (which start to build up... some of which are so far off that they turn into what is commonly known as a broken part), temp/pressure change by location as well as weather. Various tunes will fit various cars differently - it makes sense and has been shown time and time again by varied results on various off the shelf tunes.

    Otherwise, what would be the purpose of a dyno tune as you have suggested? An OTS tune could be made to be exactly on par with a dyno tune if all cars reacted the same.
    I agree over time a car will show it's personality, 50k-70k miles. A car built out of spec will break much earlier... example 2009 WRX engine knock problems... i don't think i ever saw anyone post their engine going out above 25k miles. Or older WRXs blowing through transmissions (not so much a spec problem just weak). Over time a car that is abused will show signs, here i agree 2 different WRX's or STis of the same year build month could have different power ratings of 30 HP or more.

    2 STis with 6k miles and same fuel dynoing 30HP different... I can buy 10 HP between 2 cars that are new. But poster said it was on different days, different days means different temps and pressure so that's not a valid example.

    If you think you broke you leg you can compare it to other people who fell down the same stairs and broke their leg. You can post pictures of you leg on the internet and have all the armchair experts tell you that it's broken. You can tell everyone you think it's broke because it feels broken... but you wont know it's broken until a doctor does an x-ray. Unless there is a bone pokeing through then i guess you are right, but at that point why are you posting pictures of it on the internet... go to the hospital.
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    Registered User SubiEj255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    So a car that hates an OTS map reacts in what way? did you make any logs? were you over-boosting? not hitting peak boost?
    I'm have logs I will post them. I was overboosting and knocking...

    Here ya go
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Td4SzdIQUpUdXc
    Last edited by SubiEj255; 02-02-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubiEj255
    I'm have logs I will post them. I was overboosting and knocking...

    Here ya go
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Td4SzdIQUpUdXc
    You're a bad example, because you didn't follow the map notes.

    That said, my experience with OTS maps is along what some other people have mentioned...some cars take them like a champ, some don't. I've tuned a few cars because the base maps just didn't take. I always recommend datalogs on any tune above stock (although that wouldn't be a bad idea, either), whether it be a base map or a custom tune.
    Last edited by EJ257; 02-02-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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  9. #23
    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubiEj255 View Post
    I'm have logs I will post them. I was overboosting and knocking...

    Here ya go
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Td4SzdIQUpUdXc
    Your questions were answered in this thread, i guess you didn't learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    Well i see no proof just a story of two cars you could have made up... Where are the dyno sheets? What were the dates? You quoted everything but where i state im a meteorologist and that the atmospheric conditions over a short period can change drastically leading to a 20+ hp difference in a single car on the same dyno. If you don't post some sort of proof or evidence then your arguments have no support. If you are going to make another reply with "my friends brothers sisters uncle told me so..." then don't bother.


    Why should I have to go to all that trouble to prove something to you that everyone else here has had the same experiences that I am describing? If you want the dyno sheets then you can feel free to contact keith@awdtuning.com and request as many STi baseline sheets as you want. Or contact any other tuner for that matter.. or go on EFI Logistics database and look at those sheets. I'm too lazy to even look through threads on here posted from the last two months of people stating Cobb's maps knocked on their cars. If you want "proof" then I suggest you use the search function of the forum.

    You're the one that wants the proof, so go find it.. or pay me and I will spend the time to track the information down for you.

  11. #25
    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the help guys. I've more or less decided on TP stage 2+ k&n intake map. After seeing some posts made by Eric(I believe) it seems the k&n intake offers the most consistent gains with the least amount of tweaking per car.

    Now I just need to decide if I want to spend $600 on an AP or spend $160 on a tactrix and $450 on a new laptop. Mine broke a few months ago and I never bothered to replace it as I have a desktop lol. Not sure if I trust myself to use Ecuflash and a tactrix honestly. I like the simplicity of cobbs ap.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessSea View Post
    Thanks for all the help guys. I've more or less decided on TP stage 2+ k&n intake map. After seeing some posts made by Eric(I believe) it seems the k&n intake offers the most consistent gains with the least amount of tweaking per car.

    Now I just need to decide if I want to spend $600 on an AP or spend $160 on a tactrix and $450 on a new laptop. Mine broke a few months ago and I never bothered to replace it as I have a desktop lol. Not sure if I trust myself to use Ecuflash and a tactrix honestly. I like the simplicity of cobbs ap.
    I just flashed my car using Tactrix. Ecuflash was simplicity itself. Eric provides quite clear instructions on what to do.

    Logging was a different issue. That too would be pretty easy, and Eric also provides good instructions here, but for some reason I was having lots of connection issues. Romraider would randomly have trouble connecting to the ecu. I have no idea if such issues are common or not. In the end it was more a nuisance than anything, just made my logging take half an hour when it should have taken 15 minutes. (including driving to and from the road I was using)

    That said, if you need to get a new laptop, then you wouldn't really be saving any money. So if you want the simplicity and weren't going to buy a laptop anyways, then that takes away one of the major perks to going the tactrix route (saving money). Generally it seems people prefer Eric's maps to Cobbs, but you can always still get his maps if you decide to get an AP.
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  13. #27
    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    ya thats true, with EcuFlash am i able to make changes to the tune myself(not that i would, but that would be a benefit of going OS if i could learn and tune myself) or is there other software needed?

  14. #28
    and the Funky Bunch Calvinball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessSea View Post
    ya thats true, with EcuFlash am i able to make changes to the tune myself(not that i would, but that would be a benefit of going OS if i could learn and tune myself) or is there other software needed?
    You would use Romraider to do that, which is the other free program you would get besides ecuflash. Romraider is also the program that you log with. Ecuflash is just for flashing/saving your stock tune.
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  15. #29
    Registered User EndlessSea's Avatar
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    well that settles that then. sounds like EcuFlash+Romraider is what im after. eventually i would like to be able to log and tune my own car. once its out of warranty that is!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    You're a bad example, because you didn't follow the map notes.

    That said, my experience with OTS maps is along what some other people have mentioned...some cars take them like a champ, some don't. I've tuned a few cars because the base maps just didn't take. I always recommend datalogs on any tune above stock (although that wouldn't be a bad idea, either), whether it be a base map or a custom tune.

    You're right. I didn't look at it, but this is when I was stage 1 and this log looked bad.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...E1EcjNZVzJZWlE
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