Protune Redo
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This is a discussion on Protune Redo within the Tuning: Electronic Engine Management forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Just over a year ago I got the first Protune at Agile Automotive Performance - Tuning, Fabrication, and Parts . ...

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    Moderator   Sasquatch's Avatar
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    Protune Redo

    Just over a year ago I got the first Protune at Agile Automotive Performance - Tuning, Fabrication, and Parts.

    I returned today to address a drop in maximum boost levels and see what the Donkey'd exhaust mains - Grimmspeed crossover was good for.

    I was mostly quite happy with the results; 246 awhp, 268 awtq. Last year it was 237 / 268 and 10 degrees cooler at the time of the tune. I also gained 1 psi for a maximum of 20.

    Hill was his usual professional self, making the best of what was there and thoroughly explained what was going on. His attention to detail and knowledge of tuning is impressive.

    I lost ~200 rpm worth of the fast spool I had, but gained more top end. The dotted lines were last year's tune; the solid was today. The high flow crossover seems to be the cause of the lost low end grunt.

    I kind of wish I still had the faster spool and stronger torque down low. Hard to say if the butt dyno misses it for real, especially since my boost levels had dropped off since the first tune.

    So, which is the better tune?

    Last edited by Sasquatch; 04-23-2010 at 03:53 PM.
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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04.SPT.WRX
    I lost ~200 rpm worth of the fast spool I had, but gained more top end. The dotted lines were last year's tune; the solid was today. The high flow crossover seems to be the cause of the lost low end grunt.
    I've talked about this with friends. I think it's an issue with the fact that you can only port so far into the manifolds. The air goes from XX" with the crosspipe to YY" minimum in the elbow (which creates turbulence). For this reason, I like my PnP'd OEM crosspipe (the inlet is Pnp'd) over the Grimmspeed version; most likely 80% of the gains are to be had by just PnPing the inlet.

    Quote Originally Posted by 04.SPT.WRX
    I kind of wish I still had the faster spool and stronger torque down low. Hard to say if the butt dyno misses it for real, especially since my boost levels had dropped off since the first tune.

    So, which is the better tune?
    Honestly, I prefer the first dynoplot. The difference in torque is far more drastic than a difference in horsepower.
    Last edited by EJ257; 10-11-2010 at 10:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    Honestly, I prefer the first dynoplot. The difference in torque is far more drastic than a difference in horsepower.
    Me too.
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    I like the first tune better as well. The area under the curve is larger and thus the tune is better.

    I have been doing a lot of research and thinking on P&P manifolds with Grimmspeed's crosspipe. From my research I think the issue comes from a loss of pressure by opening the manifold crosspipe too much. I got this from Bernoulli's equation. I am trying to model this with Matlab but my other classes hinder this research too much.

    Are your manifolds ported? Especially at the uppipe intersection?
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    Quote Originally Posted by oguitar View Post
    Are your manifolds ported? Especially at the uppipe intersection?
    Yep: Donkey'd exhaust mains - Grimmspeed crossover
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    Quote Originally Posted by oguitar
    I have been doing a lot of research and thinking on P&P manifolds with Grimmspeed's crosspipe. From my research I think the issue comes from a loss of pressure by opening the manifold crosspipe too much. I got this from Bernoulli's equation. I am trying to model this with Matlab but my other classes hinder this research too much.
    That's a better way of saying what I did...
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    A P&P OEM is on its way ...
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    Been there and experienced this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    Been there and experienced this.
    You warned me.
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    I would have expected to have seen slightly more gains but sometimes there are other things at play. Like normal wear and tear on the motor (lower compression) or a slight exhaust leak preturbo. Did you clean the MAF before you went? The Grimmspeed one is alittle larger (1.92"/49mm I.D.) vs the Injen I had (1.72"/44mm I.D.). I will get that P&Ped stocker out to ya!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
    slight exhaust leak preturbo. Did you clean the MAF before you went? I will get that P&Ped stocker out to ya!
    I used new gaskets and gradually torqued them down in the correct sequence. Yep, the MAF was cleaned just prior with CRC MAF cleaner. How much of a difference would 10 degrees of air temps make?

    P&P OEM ... thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04.SPT.WRX View Post
    How much of a difference would 10 degrees of air temps make?
    Not alot but maybe some if the heat index is included (humidity).
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    You should definitely not be trying to compare dyno tunes/runs that are a year apart, there are SO many external variables that can change even day to day like what Donkey stated(temp, humidity, car wear and tune). A 10 degree difference in temps is definitely going to make a change on the dyno...think about how much warmer an 80 degree day feels from a 70 degree day. Out of 1000s of ported manifolds w/crosspipes i have never once seen one not make power. A few lost a few psi of boost because of the increased flow but once they tightened the wastegate back up to reach the same psi as before, the gains were there.

    I understand what you are saying with pipes being much bigger and decreasing flow, but our pipes are definitely not too big. if anything we are just a touch smaller than average so we are able to make sure our customers don't lose flow from an overly big pipe.

    Also, you stated in your email that low end power felt much better which shows me it did perform as advertised. I would advise you to base the gains off your butt dyno than trying to compare a tune from a year ago.
    Last edited by GrimmSpeed; 04-26-2010 at 04:31 PM.
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    Registered User oguitar's Avatar
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    I agree that you can not depend too much on the dyno chart and should instead make your decision on how the car feels. This is the first direct evidence I have seen of Bernoulli's principle at work though.

    So this is the way I look at it. If you increase the inner diameter of the exhaust piping you allow more air to flow but its velocity decreases. The increase in flow allows you to make bigger HP numbers. The loss in velocity causes your spool to decrease.

    You could actually tune your exhaust flow to deliver what you want. So if you love fast spool don't port too much. If you want to increase your max HP #'s port more.

    The turbulence issue is a little more complicated but if your junctions are smooth you should be able to minimize this effect.

    Here is my question. If one were to port all the exhaust manifolds and cross-pipe but left the junction to the up-pipe un-ported, just polished, would you get the best of both worlds? Or would your just get a stronger exhaust velocity pulse? Sometimes I think about this stuff too much so ignore if you think this subject is boring.

    Here is a little animation of Bernoulli's principle. It helps to actually see the theory in action.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html
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    Interesting.
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