Modified Exhaust Ticket in Phoenixville! - Page 4
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This is a discussion on Modified Exhaust Ticket in Phoenixville! within the Tri-State forums, part of the Regional Discussion category; Originally Posted by wrx wagone Bump for Vez. I saw your attempt at a thread on Nasioc. That place is ...

  1. #46
    Vez
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    Bump for Vez. I saw your attempt at a thread on Nasioc. That place is wonderful. People are calling you a moron for actually using the court system as it was designed.

    Any updates?

    Also, I run an Invidia N1 and we have strict noise limits over at our Warminster AutoX site. When tested with an actual sound meter, I'm at 88-90 dba under full throttle. If you would like we can test your exhaust also.

    There are many ways to test sound, so you can get different results depending on how you test.

    Thank you. I may take you up on that. Is there someone "officially" trained to measure the sound? That's a stipulation in Title 67. Passing the test won't be a problem whatsoever. Legally, there is no RPM requirement for the test so I just have to drop it into 6th and cruise on by...it's a poorly thought out law. lol However, I would like to see how loud I can make it if I try so I have a frame of reference. When you got yours measured, was it at the tailpipe? The PA law states the mic can be 50' away and has modifiers to adust up to (I believe, 20'). If you measured ~89 at the tailpipe, at 50' you'd be under the max at full throttle! That's about what I had thought, but what do I know? My ears are as calibrated as the cops'! lol

    I called Invidia and I couldn't understand 80% of what the guy was saying; he didn't speak english well. Bottom line was he had no data.

    I talked to the State Police in Schwenksville, and the tropper I spoke with was a decent guy to talk with. Short version, they don't have the EQ nor did he know of anyone who did. He suggested an inspection station or a votech school. I said I thought it had to be a trained cop and he said no, they just need to be proppery trained....so anyone with training pertaining to sound measurement would suffice. I went to Welsh Subaru (my dealership) and they didn't have any EQ nor did they know of anyone who did. They did suggest Phoenix Racing. I called them and they didn't have the EQ either but the guy said he'd make some phone calls to see if he could track some down and get back to me. This was this past Friday.

    NASIOC....wow. What could I say. Most of the people were cool, but those two dolts just didn't have a clue. I posted on TST as well, and everyone over there was really cool. I thought I was doing people a favor by sharing; I'm sure others have already and/or will have to deal with a similar situation. Those two are the kind of people I'd just want to backhand. It's impossible to reason with someone who doesn't use logic. The saddest part of it was that they actually believed what they were saying.
    Last edited by Vez; 12-03-2008 at 12:25 PM.
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  3. #47
    Registered User STI-LIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vez View Post
    "TABLE 1: Maximum Permissible Sound Level Readings (decibel (A)) Highway operations test

    (These numbers are in the order of Soft Site-under 35mph, Soft Site-over 35mph, Hard Site-under 35mph, Hard Site-over 35mph, where soft/hard refer to the road being tested on (a paved road is a hard site)

    (1) Any motor vehicle with a manufacturers gross vehicle weight rating of 6,000 pounds or more and any combination of vehicles towed by such motor vehicle. 86 90 88 92

    (2) Any motorcycle other than a motor-driven cycle. 82 86 84 88

    3) Any other motor vehicle and any combination of vehicles towed by such motor vehicles. 76 82 78 84"


    So, techinically, big trucks/trailers can be (legally) the loudest, then bikes, then cars. I'm currently trying to find a place to get the decibels measured and I'll post the numbers as soon as I do. It'll at least give us a good frame of reference.
    well a blitz nur spec is rated at 96 decibels with the silencer installed

  4. #48
    Registered User RexEnvy's Avatar
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    this sucks man!! i hate those damn harleys, my house vibrates when drive by and those things doesnt even sound good. thos os my question for the judge:

    if he told there is no point of you swapping the stock muffler bcus its just as loud, making the stock muffler illegal as well. then how does subaru sell cars?

    **** this judge, if i were you i willfind out what car he drive and take nice baseball bat for a visit. looks like both the cop and judge are some import hater who think a ****ing mustang is the best car in the world.
    Last edited by RexEnvy; 12-30-2008 at 11:52 PM.

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    where im at in VA, we rarely get pulled for exhausts, although they say if it isn't stock it is illegal. i haven't gotten a ticket yet tho lol

  6. #50
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    This whole conflict of interest thing in the lower courts is really bothersome. Good job appealing this.
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  7. #51
    Vez
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    Thanks. While I appreciate the specs on the other exhaust, they aren't directly applicable due to the unknown measurement parameters (but they do give a general idea). Most standardized testing (from my research) measure at the tail pipe. In PA, the base distance between the decibel meter and the car is 50 feet at about 3 feet off the ground. So, with these conditions, the decibel levels should be much lower. In addition, PA doesn't specify RPMs at the time of testing, only whether the vehicle is travelling under or over 35 mph. Since there is no standardized or established RPM requirement at the time of measurement, this allows me to drop my RPMS...I''ll do 36 mph in 6th gear at about 2k rpms. I'm sure this is well below the 82 decibel max making it a perfectly legal set up.

    What I'm most curious about is what I would need to do to break that decibel limit. i.e. I want to know what my rpm max is in each gear, so I know what I would need to do to actually be in violation. (I'd like to try the same tests with a stock STI...out of curiosity.) Under the established, legal measurement parameters, I wonder if I could even create that amplitude of sound.
    Last edited by Vez; 01-03-2009 at 03:24 PM.
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  8. #52
    Registered User Pavia's Avatar
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    Seems the key to the issue is the DC charge based on unreasonable noise. So the "judge" placed himself in the position of the reasonable man and went outside to listen to your exhaust. He passed judgment based on his bias.

    So the only thing I can see is to try to define what the reasonable man would say about the noise of your exhaust.

    Still, its pretty rare for PA (and DE) cops to care about much about modded cars. I've had a PA trooper ask me questions about my goat in a parking lot, but just about performance and 1/4 mile times. And the GTO's exhaust makes the Blitz Nur Spec R on my WRX sound like a whisper...
    Last edited by Pavia; 01-06-2009 at 08:38 PM.
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  9. #53
    Vez
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    I talked to a friend of a friend who is in law school, and the bottom line is that it was illegal for the judge to ignore the laws I tried using to argue my case; you can't pick and choose which laws to obey. Some laws may take precedent over others, but none can be outright ignored. He knew I was in the right (as did/does the cop) and chose to ignore law. I'm sure he did it thinking I wouldn't pursue it any further; He was wrong. I'm still waiting to find out the date of my appeal hearing.

    To date, I've called 2 state police barracks, 4 other police stations (Including Phoenixville!), a Harley dealership, ICY Phoenix Racing, my dealership, a VoTech school, a car audio shop, and 2-3 muffler/exhaust shops and none had a decibel meter nor knew where to find one. lol The audio shop was the closest I've come to finding one and the guy said that those competitions aren't as popular anymore so they (as well as everyone else they knew that had one) got rid of there's about 1-2 years ago.

    I think I'm going to buy one from Radio Shack, do my tests, then return it. If I do, I plan on documenting, in explicit detail, my test procedures as well as take pictures. I may try later this week once I find out the return policy for RS. I'll post an update once it's done. While it will be a $50 meter and not the $3-4k meters specified in Title 67, it will at least establish an unofficial measurement in accordance with the test parameters as well as demonstrate my willingness to prove the legality of my car's exhaust. Ideally, the appeals judge should look at the charge, see there's no test done at the time of the citation, and just throw it out of court without the need for presenting my argument(s). Unfortunately, that should have happened at the first hearing, too. :P
    Last edited by Vez; 01-14-2009 at 09:14 AM. Reason: Me grammar no so good.
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  10. #54
    Registered User rexbro's Avatar
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    Vez, I have a radioshack sound level meter that mounts to a tripod that you are welcome to use for testing.


  11. #55
    Vez
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    OUTstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I would greatly appreciate it if I were able to use it for an hour or so. I should be able to get all the readings I need.

    Could you please tell me the make and model # so I can look up the manual online and have it read prior to seeing you as to maximize efficiency. (For the sake of the trial, I want to have read the manual personally... :P)

    Would this be correct?
    http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc61/61689.pdf

    PM sent.
    Last edited by Vez; 01-19-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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  12. #56
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Vez, how do you plan on addressing the basis of the DC citation? Data and testing is all well and good, but you are up against this language and not the laws on noise. Are you building your case to show that your exhaust is within the noise laws and therefore you assumed that there would be no "public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm" or any "unreasonable noise"?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post

    5503. Disorderly conduct.
    (a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly
    conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance
    or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof
    , he:
    (1) engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or
    tumultuous behavior;
    (2) makes unreasonable noise;
    (3) uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture;
    or
    (4) creates a hazardous or physically offensive
    condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of
    the actor.
    This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.

  13. #57
    Vez
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    My first course: Ask that the case be thrown out since the citation (per it's actual wording) is because of a loud exhaust. I will argue that despite what you want to call the citation, DC, Modified Exhaust, etc., it is still a citation for excessive exhaust noise. Because exhaust sound levels are governed by established laws, laws which the officer neglected to follow since he never measured the deceibel level, the case should be thrown out regardless of the outcome of a decibel test.

    My second course: It wasn't thrown out. I will then argue that according to Pennsylvania Law, my exhaust meets ALL of the requirements of a legal exhaust without ANY violations, emmisions, noise, or other. I will then proceed to follow the same reasoning that SHOULD have won my first trial. As long as this judge disregards what "type" of citation it is and evaluates the infraction for what it presumably was "an exhaust that was too loud", he should yield to the evidence I provide stating that not only is the officer NOT ALLOWED to make that discretionary opinion, but didn't follow law to enforce the infraction.

    My third course: The judge ignores that it should be immediately thrown out due to lack of police evidence and the attempt to side-step laws by calling it DC and not a MVC violation....and ignores the proof I will provide demonstrating that, according to the laws and guidelines established by the Commonwealth of PA, that my exhaust is perfectly legal with zero infractions...and makes me address the citation as a DC, I will then: Use the cops testamony from the first trial where he admits to me telling him, at the time of the citation, that I researched my exhaust prior to purchase ensuring that it broke no MVC. I will then show the attempts I made to prove that my exhaust falls within the acceptable decibel range as well as the results from my tests. For DC to be true, there must be "intent" to cause the disturbance. I will have proven that, at no time, did I intentionally break the law. In fact, I researched and measured the exhaust myself as not to break any laws. This should invalidate the DC charge.

    Of course, I'm going to write out all of my arguments and make an option tree to refute any possible arguement the cop will try to make in refutation to my claims. It's going to entail a bunch of work, but I'm doing this in hopes to ever have to go through this once.
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  14. #58
    Registered User JackalMech's Avatar
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    Ignorance normally is not admissable.

    I am no lawyer, but I have had my fair shair of tickets. From my POV it seems like they are leaning towards "unreasonable noise" and most of the time ignorance "I did not know" will not get you out of the ticket. I think your best course of action will be to get your decibel level read and use that with the PA Law regarding decibel levels for motor vehicles. I have been having issues trying to find a shop that has the equipment but I cannot find any. I have never had issues driving through Phoenixville and I have a 3" Catless Exhaust. I have driven with cops behind me even with the silencer off and never got pulled over. Let me know how it goes. I may need to consider putting my silencer on before going through there again.

  15. #59
    Vez
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    UPDATE - partial dB readings...

    So, thanks to rexbro, (thank you again) he leant me his dB meter. I was able to complete some of the dB testing; I plan on finishing the tests tomorrow.

    In accordance with the site, meter, and general test conditions as described in Title 67 pf the PA Vehicle Code, I took measured dB levels of my car. After completing tests on gears 1-3, I have proven that I would need to hit at least 6000 rpms in each gear to be in violation. Consequently, there is no possible way that I was even close to being in violation under normal driving conditions. The car can be and is, easily driven under the legal noise levels. I would need to be shifting past 6000 RPMs in at least the first 3 gears, to be in violation of the law.

    As a reminder, on a hard site, driving 35 MPH or less, the legal dB level is 78 or less...driving >35 MPH, the limit is 84 dB.

    Test Conditions:
    10:00AM, intermittent 10mph WSW winds (which is within the test parameters), 54 degrees F, 71% humidity, Ambient Noise Levels: <50dB.

    The following numbers are in the format (RPMs/MPH/dB).

    1st Gear: (1000/<5/58), (2000/6/62), (3000/16/70), (4000/22/72), (5000/26/75), (6000/33/80)

    2nd Gear: (1000/~7/60), (2000/18/63), (3000/25/71), (4000/35/76), (5000/42/78), (6000/51/84)

    3rd Gear: (2000/26/67), (3000/38/74), (4000/51/79), (5000/63/82), (6000/75/85)

    4th Gear: (2000/34/68)

    Based on this preliminary data:
    driving 45 MPH in 2rd gear produces ~78 dB.
    driving 45 MPH in 3rd gear produces ~76 dB.

    One can assume the driving 45 MPH in 4-6 gears will produce even quieter results.

    I tested 10 different passing vehicles (in a 45 MPH speed zone). The dB average of these vehicles was 71 dB. Normally, going 45 MPH, I'm either in 4th or 5th, which gives me better gas milage. That would put me around 73 dB...louder than the average, but by only 2 dB. Limit...84....me ~73, WELL within my legal rights and far from the legal limit giving no cause to suspect an illegal exhaust. Additionally, you can see that if I were in stop-and-go traffic or low-speed traffic, I would probably be either 2nd or 3rd gear...while these may be approaching the noise limits, they are still well within the limits, and thus, legal. Here, I can see reason for pulling me over for a dB test, but we all know that's not what happened.

    I will be gathering my actual dB levels at 45 MPH in gears 4-6 tomorrow (as well as as many of my missing data points as possible: Eliminating data points at 1000 RPMs in 3rd-6th gear as well as 6K RPM in 4th-6th, 5000 RPM in 5th and 6th, and 4000 RPM in 6th. The speeds at which I would need to achieve for these is far beyond a safe level in this particular test environment. Also, a measurement at idle will be taken and what the stock horn registers at...
    Last edited by Vez; 02-09-2009 at 01:33 PM.
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    Man this sucks i got the same ticket last month. The **** up thing is that the cop that pulled me over let me go last summer for speeding while he was working for a different district. But i got the same ticket us you and i work at phoenix performance i run the Subaru shop.
    I drive every morning and for lunch and when i drive home on the same road and this was the first time in my 3 years of having this car and driving on 23 in phoenixville that i got pulled over by the phoenixville police.

    Was the cop that pulled you over a younger guy?
    And the funny part is that i was at a traffic light and just started moving and my car is loud for people that know me on here have heard my car before, but i was not making that much noise i was not rev it up or any thing.

    He asked for my papers and asked me if i know what i was pulled over for i told him idk and he said having a loud car and that he could hear me from far a way while i was stopped at a traffic light and was in bumper to bumper traffic while driving, and he was stopped at the cross road us soon as i passed him that's when he made a right and turned his lights but as soon as you pass the traffic light you are in another township.

    I told him this is the first time i am getting pulled over by the phoenixville police and that i drive 23 every day and never been stopped before he got my papers and came back with a DC ticked and told me to call the number he wrote on the the ticked and to mailed in. The funny part is that i call the number and it sends me to vice mail every time i called it and finely i left a voice mail and one the ppl at the court called me back and said that the cop should have not written a number down or told you to call.

    So i have a court dated on the 18th off this month for it but reading what you did i don't think i am going to win.
    So i am going to ask my boss to find a lawyer cause i don't want that **** on my records cause its a pain in the ass when we go racing in Canada crossing the border.

    So know i took my side pipes off and got a a N1 race pipe on the car its a little quiet.
    One the cops that works for the west pikland townships has a sti and he is cool they don't bother you if your not speeding or doing something stupid.

    I will let you guys know what happens.
    The town is trying to make some money some one has to pay for all them new buildings in phoenixville.
    Last edited by 06icywrx; 02-09-2009 at 09:39 PM.

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