Short Throw Shifters and Their Effects on Synchros
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This is a discussion on Short Throw Shifters and Their Effects on Synchros within the Transmission & AWD forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; A friend told me that short-throw shifters are hard on your synchros. I want to get one, but I figure ...

  1. #1
    Registered User element533's Avatar
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    short throw and synchros

    A friend told me that short-throw shifters are hard on your synchros. I want to get one, but I figure I'll wait until I master rev-matching and heel-toe shifting. Is that a good plan?

    Also, when I get one, should I just go with the Subaru short shifter? What third-party shifters should I look into? I've seen reference to ILP and Kartboy. Would a third-party shifter have any effect on the warranty?
    Speedometer? Is that the thing next to the tach?

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    Registered User MustGoFast's Avatar
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    If you get the subaru short throw installed by subaru or get it with your car it would be covered under your waranty, if u get an after market one there is no telling how much of your transmissions warranty will be invalidated (my guess is most)

    Also I have never heard of it being harder on your synchros? Anyone else?
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    Registered User GTIWRX's Avatar
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    just get the sti installed by subaru.......same as what mgf said, i had my sti shortthrow installed by the factory and its covered from what i know

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    Registered User MustGoFast's Avatar
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    <reference to the short throw itself>
    Funny thing about the warranty stuff is if you get the short throw on the car when you buy it; it will be covered by at least your 3 yr 36K bumper to bumper if not your 5yr 60K powertrain...

    yet if you get the subaru one put on after you buy your car from subaru then it will only be covered for 1 yr. via the subaru parts waranty.

    <reference to the syncros you were worried about>
    Of course still if a problem occurs in yoru synchros either due to either of the above that should be covered in the 5/60 of it. Where as if you get yoru own aftermarket there will be no coverage of any kind.
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    Registered User Powerwagon's Avatar
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    Since I just noticed that nobody really answered if it is hard on the synchros, I'll give it a shot. You basically got it covered by waiting until you have some practice with rev matching. It is possible to hurt the synchros only because you would be able to shift a bit faster. If your engine speed can't fall fast enough to "rev match", then I would consider getting a lightened flywheel. The ideal shift speed would be one that engaged the next gear exactly when the revs lowered to the prober RPM for that gear/speed. This is going to be an issue more common with upshifting than down because people tend to be more diligent with rev matching on downshifting (if they try to rev match at all).

    I'll now wait and let somebody tell me how wrong I am. BTW, this should really be in the powertrain forum and would also get a much better response. You may contact a moderator to move it over for you.
    Last edited by Powerwagon; 02-22-2003 at 12:26 PM.

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    tan
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    Re: short throw and synchros

    Originally posted by element533
    A friend told me that short-throw shifters are hard on your synchros. I want to get one, but I figure I'll wait until I master rev-matching and heel-toe shifting. Is that a good plan?

    Also, when I get one, should I just go with the Subaru short shifter? What third-party shifters should I look into? I've seen reference to ILP and Kartboy. Would a third-party shifter have
    any effect on the warranty?
    Not really. It's a matter of getting used to the new shorter throws AND the timing of your left foot.

    The short throw shifter doesn't kill your synchros....it's us and how we drive it.

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    Registered User koyokid's Avatar
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    Re: Re: short throw and synchros

    Originally posted by tan
    Not really. It's a matter of getting used to the new shorter throws AND the timing of your left foot.

    The short throw shifter doesn't kill your synchros....it's us and how we drive it.
    100% agreed. Learing to properly shift will extend the life of even the worst transmissions. Learn the technique first and you can drive any manual with any shifter and not have to worry.
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    Registered User amukaoen's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Powerwagon
    The ideal shift speed would be one that engaged the next gear exactly when the revs lowered to the prober RPM for that gear/speed. This is going to be an issue more common with upshifting than down because people tend to be more diligent with rev matching on downshifting (if they try to rev match at all).
    you rev match when you upshift?!?!?! =-o ive never heard of that before...
    they call STi's STDs because everyone is getting them.

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    tan
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    sounds goofy...but yes.

    Between each ratio, the rpm drops a certain amount, generally about 1000 rpms from 1st to 4th, and about 500 to fifth.

    Eventually you get used to the rpm drop during upshifts, and you re-engage the clutch right approximately where the rpms will drop to.

    Not the fastest way to drive...but saves wear and tear on the clutch, synchros, and gears.

  11. #10
    Registered User element533's Avatar
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    OK, so here's the million dollar question.

    If I already have to wait for the flywheel to spin up/down, is there any point in getting a short-throw?

    In other words, the shifter travel is not the longest part of my shift -- it is matching revs that takes so long. Going from first to second takes almost a full second to match.

    The other thing, too, is that I have to fight my synchros. Especially when going from first to second, I have to pull and hold until it finally clunks into gear. It takes about half a second. Fortunately, I'm waiting on the engine to drop revs at this point anyways, but if I ever go to a lightweight flywheel, I will be waiting on the linkage whenever I shift (tapping the accelerator so I don't undershoot the match-point). But would a short throw help me get past the synchros?

    OK, so I guess that's two 500,000-dollar questions.

    I'm basically saying that I think there are other (mechanical) factors in the car that have a far greater impact on my shift times than the geometrical distance in travel of my shift lever.
    Speedometer? Is that the thing next to the tach?

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    Registered User ShotgunTC88's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Powerwagon
    Since I just noticed that nobody really answered if it is hard on the synchros, I'll give it a shot. You basically got it covered by waiting until you have some practice with rev matching. It is possible to hurt the synchros only because you would be able to shift a bit faster. If your engine speed can't fall fast enough to "rev match", then I would consider getting a lightened flywheel. The ideal shift speed would be one that engaged the next gear exactly when the revs lowered to the prober RPM for that gear/speed. This is going to be an issue more common with upshifting than down because people tend to be more diligent with rev matching on downshifting (if they try to rev match at all).

    I'll now wait and let somebody tell me how wrong I am. BTW, this should really be in the powertrain forum and would also get a much better response. You may contact a moderator to move it over for you.

    You are exactly right................

    NEVER "rush" a shift, Not only do syncros get hurt, One may be out in the street waitin on AAA and a flatbed

    Shift when the Engine/Tranny WANTS to shift and leave the Power shifting to the ones that want a new tranny.


    .02
    Shotgun

  13. #12
    Registered User ShotgunTC88's Avatar
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    Originally posted by element533
    OK, so here's the million dollar question.

    If I already have to wait for the flywheel to spin up/down, is there any point in getting a short-throw?

    In other words, the shifter travel is not the longest part of my shift -- it is matching revs that takes so long. Going from first to second takes almost a full second to match.

    The other thing, too, is that I have to fight my synchros. Especially when going from first to second, I have to pull and hold until it finally clunks into gear. It takes about half a second. Fortunately, I'm waiting on the engine to drop revs at this point anyways, but if I ever go to a lightweight flywheel, I will be waiting on the linkage whenever I shift (tapping the accelerator so I don't undershoot the match-point). But would a short throw help me get past the synchros?

    OK, so I guess that's two 500,000-dollar questions.

    I'm basically saying that I think there are other (mechanical) factors in the car that have a far greater impact on my shift times than the geometrical distance in travel of my shift lever.
    Please dont take this as a smart ass reply........

    It takes a bit of time to get an "ear" and a "feel" for when your car wants to shift.

    For the time being, I would only do "Spirited" shifts at/or under 5000 R.P.Ms and LIGHTLY shift gears.

    If you hear any grind or feel resistence in the shifter to engage just ABORT the shift and let off the gas.

    In time you will learn/feel more of what your car is telling you.

    Be patient

    .02
    Shotgun

    Forgot........

    The Short throw shifters MAIN reason for being (To me anyway) is to help someone who already KNOWS thier car.

    Lets just say you are in a Rally/Road course and have to get in/out of a corner a tad quicker than the other guys in the race/course.

    The "Short Shifter" saves you a fraction of time when you KNOW how to get in/out of gears quickly and SMOOTHLY.

    On the STREET where alot of folks (we shouldnt) see it as a "good" thing..... Is the WORST thing for an A.W.D car. (Drag Race)

    It seems alot of guys/gals think the "faster" you shift the quicker you go..(true if your talkin tenths of a sec.)

    Unless your racing John Force......

    Just get it cause you like to think its gonna make you feel "faster"........It wont.

    if you fk up a shift and and hear that horrible sound of your gears eating each other.... Ask yourself, Is a tenth or two seconds worth $4/5 grand at the dealer?

    Hell you can do that with the STOCK shifter....

    In my opinion,

    get it just to "have" it .

    Otherwise, Spend your money on a Reflash. (Later)


    .02
    Shotgun
    Last edited by ShotgunTC88; 06-18-2004 at 02:29 PM.

  14. #13
    Registered User element533's Avatar
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    Sometimes I get grinding when I'm putting it into 1st at a stop. Going from first to second is always hard, regardless of how fast or slow I try to shift. I mean, I don't have to LEAN on it or anything, but I definitely have to push and wait, while it clunks through and finally locks into place. However, it never grinds when upshifting. Going from 2nd to 3rd, I can sort of feel the gears playing around for a split second, but they aren't grinding.

    Going from 2nd to 1st, I have to double-clutch, and sometimes I get grinding and sometimes it goes in like butter.

    Typically, I get better shifts at high RPMs (4-6K).
    Last edited by element533; 06-18-2004 at 02:19 PM.
    Speedometer? Is that the thing next to the tach?

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    Registered User Retro's Avatar
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    ^^ Try not leaning as hard in first. Sometimes first just does not want to go in, and you have to back out, double clutch and go back in. Two things I do for a cranky first:

    1. tap the gas a little before trying to go in.. seriously, don't tap and push, just tap a second before and then push.
    2. Go into second and then first. This works 100% of the time so method (1) is depreciated.
    clutch, shift, gas, clutch, shift, gas, shift, clutch, gas, clutch gas, shift... oops!

  16. #15
    Registered User ShotgunTC88's Avatar
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    Or do like my old arse does and only use first to leave the light.

    Shotgun

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