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This is a discussion on Alignment basics within the Suspension & Wheels forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by Spencer3636 Thanks for the info, I'm going to run down and get some camber bolts after work. ...

  1. #166
    Wrinklechops
    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer3636 View Post
    Thanks for the info, I'm going to run down and get some camber bolts after work. Maybe I'll get some for the front too and see if I can get my front a bit more negative.

    And make sure the tech knows to loosen up the upper or lower bolt when adjusting the front, I forget which. My shop didn't even know you could squeeze more out of it that way.

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  3. #167
    Registered User AgentH's Avatar
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    I smacked a curb pretty good, bent a control arm in the processes. The 2nd to last time I had my alignment done, I had camber bolts in and they weren't cooperating with the tech and I. He likes to make the adjustments w/the car still on its wheels. Anyways, I decided that the camber bolts in the rear weren't worth it if All I was going for was the stock -1.5 camber in the rear. I put the stock ones back in it and wound up the same side I smashed into a curb on was Off. -1.1 vs -1.5 on the other side. So maybe the previous owner of your car (assuming there was one) was in an accident. Camber bolts would definitely help.
    2nd WRX...
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  4. #168
    Registered User Spencer3636's Avatar
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    Went back for my alignment and it looks pretty good

    F.L.
    Camber -0.8
    Caster 2.7
    Toe 0.00

    F.R.
    Camber -0.8
    Caster 3.2
    Toe 0.0

    R.L.
    Camber -1.5
    Toe 0.0

    R.R.
    Camber -1.7
    Toe 0.0

    Cross Camber 0.0
    Total Toe 0.01

    The only thing that is out of OEM spec would be my front left Caster, my cross caster is -0.5 and might explain my slight pull to the right, what can I do to even these out a bit?
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  5. #169
    Moderating on the run! Big Sky WRX's Avatar
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    not much- one option is to use the WL offset bushings and try and get the rotation of the bushing just right- might not be very easy to do
    "Simplify and add lightness." - Colin Chapman

  6. #170
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
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    is there possibly a bent suspension component?
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  7. #171
    Registered User Spencer3636's Avatar
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    I was looking at the offset bushing, but yes that does look like a pain, not to mention my difference between them is 0.5, not huge but its there. So that might be more trouble then it's worth. Not sure how important the Caster is, I'm still pretty new in the suspension world.

    That was my next thought, something bent.. I need to change my end links this weekend so while I'm under there I'm going to check it all out.

    Thanks for the info guys! Over all though I am pretty impressed with the latest alignment
    Carpe Diem!

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  8. #172
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    [QUOTE=Big Sky WRX;972859]For a good "street" setup, camber in the front from -1.0 - -1.5 (achieved w/ the oem bolts) and camber in the rear from-1.0 (must have camber bolts/plates to achieve this) to oem -1.3, w/ 0 toe is a very good all-around setup.

    so your saying that on a stock 06 wrx you can adjust the camber up to almost -1.5 with out and parts? can anyone explain to me how to do this?

  9. #173
    Moderating on the run! Big Sky WRX's Avatar
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    it varies by car, but typically between -1.0 (low end) and -1.5 (high end) is achievable w/ the oe eccentric bolt up front

    simply loosen BOTH lower front strut bolts and turn the upper eccentric bolt until you reach max neg camber

    you'll want a shop to do this (unless you can also adjust toe) as toe changes w/ camber
    "Simplify and add lightness." - Colin Chapman

  10. #174
    Registered User etothen's Avatar
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    thanks again

    Thanks again Big Sky and all who added for a very informitave thread with fairly high information density despit its length, a real page turner as it were

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    Surely one of the members with little else to that has 1000's of posts will reply with an AAARG. NOT AGAIN...

    Anyway for what it's worth, rear toe adjustments have a major effect on how a car will react.

    TOE-OUT (rear) will reduce understeer and bring the car close to neutral, if it has a tendency to understeer, as most factory specs do. If you have after-market, heavier front bars alone will increase understeer a lot. You must add a heavier rear bar to bring it back to a slight oversteer. TOE-OUT (rear) has the same effect.

    TOE-IN (rear) wll enhance the understeer even more.

    Most of the above can also be effected to the same degree by front toe-in or toe-out.

    Caster is only adjustable by moving the upper strut bolts in or out. A caster plate does this. The more front negative caster will snap the wheel back to center faster but you'll feel road bumps more through the steering wheel. Think of the caster wheels on a shopping cart... strong self centering because of negative caster.

    Pretty sure I recall this stuff. It's been a long time since I ended my 15 year Solo2 hobby.

  12. #176
    Moderating on the run! Big Sky WRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagel View Post
    Surely one of the members with little else to that has 1000's of posts will reply with an AAARG. NOT AGAIN...

    Anyway for what it's worth, rear toe adjustments have a major effect on how a car will react.

    TOE-OUT (rear) will reduce understeer and bring the car close to neutral, if it has a tendency to understeer, as most factory specs do. If you have after-market, heavier front bars alone will increase understeer a lot. You must add a heavier rear bar to bring it back to a slight oversteer. TOE-OUT (rear) has the same effect.

    TOE-IN (rear) wll enhance the understeer even more.

    Most of the above can also be effected to the same degree by front toe-in or toe-out.

    Caster is only adjustable by moving the upper strut bolts in or out. A caster plate does this. The more front negative caster will snap the wheel back to center faster but you'll feel road bumps more through the steering wheel. Think of the caster wheels on a shopping cart... strong self centering because of negative caster.

    Pretty sure I recall this stuff. It's been a long time since I ended my 15 year Solo2 hobby.
    AAARG NOT AGAIN

    your correct a little toe out in the rear will help the car rotate, a little toe out in the front will help turn in- the key is the little part. toe (in or out) eats up tires (think about your tires dragging sideways)

    personally I do like a little toe out front/rear

    I thicker front bar doesn't always equate to more understeer- with soft (oe springs) combined w/ a Mac P strut suspension- you get lots of positive camber in a turn- this takes away grip, firm up the front roll stiffness (via a larger front sway bar) and you can increase front grip. Of course this is up to a point- like anything you can go too far.

    caster can be changed by a couple different methods- plates which move the top of the strut rearward, lower control arms or bushings which move the bottom of the strut forward

    positive caster is what self centers a car, not negative- the biggest benefit of positive caster is it's effect on dynamic camber in a turn- the more positive caster the less camber loss in a turn
    "Simplify and add lightness." - Colin Chapman

  13. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sky WRX View Post
    AAARG NOT AGAIN

    your correct a little toe out in the rear will help the car rotate, a little toe out in the front will help turn in- the key is the little part. toe (in or out) eats up tires (think about your tires dragging sideways)

    personally I do like a little toe out front/rear

    I thicker front bar doesn't always equate to more understeer- with soft (oe springs) combined w/ a Mac P strut suspension- you get lots of positive camber in a turn- this takes away grip, firm up the front roll stiffness (via a larger front sway bar) and you can increase front grip. Of course this is up to a point- like anything you can go too far.

    caster can be changed by a couple different methods- plates which move the top of the strut rearward, lower control arms or bushings which move the bottom of the strut forward

    positive caster is what self centers a car, not negative- the biggest benefit of positive caster is it's effect on dynamic camber in a turn- the more positive caster the less camber loss in a turn
    Are not shopping cart castors negative caster because they reduce the effective wheekbase? Hence, -negative caster.

    Adversely, positive caster INCREASES wheelbase. I suppose I could dig out a copy of my book, "How to win at slalom & Autocross", published 1972 by Sports Car Press, but I'll just accept your caster definition for now. Peace.

    Never had scrubbing tire wear from either camber or castor. Ran mainly shaved tires, no chunking.Neg. camber REDUCES outside edge tire wear. Confirmed by the "chalk mark" method. Especially running 46-48psi in the fronts, rear about 6lbs less. Gives trailing throttle and left foot braking beautiful tail dancing. Just one opinion. Many. many aspects can loosen up the solo handling. Not a science. More like MAGIC..
    Last edited by pagel; 02-16-2010 at 09:36 AM. Reason: spell

  14. #178
    Moderating on the run! Big Sky WRX's Avatar
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    a shopping cart utilizes positive caster- that's why it pushes nicely and generally in a straight line- try pulling back on a shopping cart- gets squirrelly in a hurry- that's negative caster

    your correct caster and camber have little effect on tire wear (as you mention increasing neg in motorsport applications can actually decrease wear)- you can go too far w/ camber though and get increased tire wear (this may be acceptable in some situations)

    not true for toe though- increase or decrease toe from 0 and you'll get added wear (again some additional wear may be acceptable if your getting what you want performance wise)
    "Simplify and add lightness." - Colin Chapman

  15. #179
    Registered User AgentH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagel View Post
    Especially running 46-48psi in the fronts, rear about 6lbs less. Gives trailing throttle and left foot braking beautiful tail dancing. Just one opinion.
    46 - 48 psi is way too much for a 225-245 40-45 17 street tire, which is what most guys running their wrx in solo use. You go that high and grip goes to hell while making things way too uneasy.

    If you have after-market, heavier front bars alone will increase understeer a lot. You must add a heavier rear bar to bring it back to a slight oversteer. TOE-OUT (rear) has the same effect.
    I'm running a 27mm front sway bar and have noticed a good bump in front grip (up from 22mm f&r). Increasing your rear swaybar diameter without touching your front sway will increase tossability, but at a sacrifice in overall cornering grip.
    2nd WRX...
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  16. #180
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    You know your stuff...only thing is the caster description. In the old days, before McPhersons, the "king pin-angle, to front or rear was caster. We never discussed stuff like "scrub radius" like today.

    Many the times we've sat under a shade tree talking about this stuff while waiting at an event.

    I still feel a shopping cart has negative on the front wheels moving forward so they self staighten with the least effort..

    Positive caster wheels would dance all over, follow every contour in the floor. Pesky at best. If you can paste a diagram on the net please include.

    Tire wear is not even mentionable in already shaved solo tires that might see battle 2 hours a season and no daily usage. Tires hardening and losing their durometer softness as they age is more of a problem... or tires that are for track use and won't heat up enough in a 1.00+min. run. Hate to waste any more web band space before others start complaining.

    Best reference book I ever had was "How to make a car handle", maybe 200 pages. Can't find mine anymore.

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