What sway bars and end links did you get? - Page 4
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This is a discussion on What sway bars and end links did you get? within the Suspension & Wheels forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by EJ257 You're correct that my post count "doesn't make me special". However, my experience wrenching on and ...

  1. #46
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    You're correct that my post count "doesn't make me special". However, my experience wrenching on and tuning these cars does...

    In laymen terms:
    1. Understeer = Front runs wider than rear
    2. Oversteer = Rear runs wider than front

    By upgrading the rear swaybar, you're causing the rear to "push", and will make the car more "neutral" in terms of handling. However, that doesn't address the original issue of the front running wide in a corner, it just means that the rear end is running wider than necessary, as well. Fixing understeer by slapping a larger rear swaybar on the car is essentially like trying to get someone to quit smoking by giving them a tin of Copenhagen.

    The MacPherson strut used in the front causes significant camber loss in Subarus on turn-in, by design. As you enter a turn, the outside spring gets loaded, and compresses. As it compresses, camber on that corner moves towards zero/positive. As a result, the front end will "push" as a result of not having optimal contact patch.

    By increasing the front swaybar stiffness, you decrease the amount of dynamic camber loss as you enter a corner. As a result, you see more contact patch at the front; therefore, the front end does not "push" as badly as before, and understeer is decreased.



    Buying F/R swaybars and endlinks is ideal.

    That said, if you're looking for a single bar, I would argue that the front bar is more important than the rear for reasons stated above.



    If you buy from a reputable company, the manufacturer of the bar shouldn't matter. The composition, however, absolutely DOES matter. A hollow bar (e.g., Eibach) is significantly less rigid than a solid one (e.g., Whiteline).
    That is contingent on a scenario where obtaining ultimate grip is the primary goal though. There is another school of thought (we'll call it the "James May School") holding that fixing the cars dynamics is the goal alone. In the extreme, it would involve skinny slippy stock size all weather rubber like the original re92. The point being to have a car that will slide around a bit in a very nice way without breakneck speeds. I suppose I am biased as my car started life with the puny wagon rear bar and just installing the sedan bar was a significant upgrade. I suppose I am one of the only people that ever praised those super crappy re92 for being pretty entertaining and a great way to learn about the limits of your car. Anyways, I digress, however the point being that doing the rear can be a fun upgrade even if it doesn't win you a track based event.

    I am a bit confused on the hollow vs. solid comparison. Your statement is of course a tautology, but, hollow bars make up for that with increased diameter to a point. I suppose there are significantly stiffer solid bars for track driving but for the street good hollow bars do make it to the sweet spot. I love the Hotchkis wagon set in my current setup (the RCE springs of course backing the bars up quite a bit).
    "From a little spark may burst a mighty flame." - Dante
    "The stitch is lost unless the thread is knotted." - Italian proverb

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  3. #47
    Registered User A265's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist View Post
    I am a bit confused on the hollow vs. solid comparison. Your statement is of course a tautology, but, hollow bars make up for that with increased diameter to a point. I suppose there are significantly stiffer solid bars for track driving but for the street good hollow bars do make it to the sweet spot. I love the Hotchkis wagon set in my current setup (the RCE springs of course backing the bars up quite a bit).
    By no means is a hollow bar bad, it just needs to be noted that to achieve the same level of stiffness from a solid bar, the hollow bar needs to be bigger.

    As a example.
    a 24mm whiteline (solid) bar is stiffer than a 25mm eibach (hollow) bar.

    Note: The hollow vs solid might have a other advantages in extreme conditions (read track car).

  4. #48
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist
    That is contingent on a scenario where obtaining ultimate grip is the primary goal though. There is another school of thought (we'll call it the "James May School") holding that fixing the cars dynamics is the goal alone. In the extreme, it would involve skinny slippy stock size all weather rubber like the original re92. The point being to have a car that will slide around a bit in a very nice way without breakneck speeds. I suppose I am biased as my car started life with the puny wagon rear bar and just installing the sedan bar was a significant upgrade. I suppose I am one of the only people that ever praised those super crappy re92 for being pretty entertaining and a great way to learn about the limits of your car. Anyways, I digress, however the point being that doing the rear can be a fun upgrade even if it doesn't win you a track based event.
    I was asked to explain why a larger front bar won't make the car understeer worse than before.

    There's nothing wrong with your school of thought. I subscribe to the one that wants the car to go where I point it in the most efficient manner possible. For me, making the car slide is reserved for empty snowy parking lots; where I live, that's easy enough to accomplish six months out of the year.

    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist
    I am a bit confused on the hollow vs. solid comparison. Your statement is of course a tautology, but, hollow bars make up for that with increased diameter to a point. I suppose there are significantly stiffer solid bars for track driving but for the street good hollow bars do make it to the sweet spot. I love the Hotchkis wagon set in my current setup (the RCE springs of course backing the bars up quite a bit).
    As Andre said, bars of the same size.
    2005 WRX STi (Mods | Virtual Dyno)

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  5. #49
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    Great thread and thanks for the info, got eibach just my personnel choice. install tomorrow, track on /sat...

  6. #50
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    I was asked to explain why a larger front bar won't make the car understeer worse than before.

    There's nothing wrong with your school of thought. I subscribe to the one that wants the car to go where I point it in the most efficient manner possible. For me, making the car slide is reserved for empty snowy parking lots; where I live, that's easy enough to accomplish six months out of the year.



    As Andre said, bars of the same size.
    Ah - I admit I just jumped in on the last page and didn't go back for the full context.

    My current setup is as such - always glued. It is hard to get a little more than a tire moan out of it on back roads. RWD (or even FWD with a light car and a non-torquey plant) is a better platform for the May approach anyways.
    "From a little spark may burst a mighty flame." - Dante
    "The stitch is lost unless the thread is knotted." - Italian proverb

  7. #51
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist
    My current setup is as such - always glued. It is hard to get a little more than a tire moan out of it on back roads. RWD (or even FWD with a light car and a non-torquey plant) is a better platform for the May approach anyways.
    Yeah, a car with a drive system designed to maintain traction is not the ideal vehicle if you are looking to make it get loose...

    Your wagon is setup very well. I'd love to drive it next time we hang out.
    2005 WRX STi (Mods | Virtual Dyno)

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  8. #52
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    Yeah, a car with a drive system designed to maintain traction is not the ideal vehicle if you are looking to make it get loose...

    Your wagon is setup very well. I'd love to drive it next time we hang out.
    Sure thing. I let one other person drive it 10 years ago.
    "From a little spark may burst a mighty flame." - Dante
    "The stitch is lost unless the thread is knotted." - Italian proverb

  9. #53
    Registered User XRedJar's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info EJ257!!

    All I'm looking for is to get the handling neutral. Would just like to achieve that the simplest way possible. That and not overstress my UHP all season tires in the process.
    2013 Ice Silver Premium 5 door - Stage 1 E-Tune

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    somebody reported me to the mods because I argued my point in this thread... I wonder who.... I could care less, much advice I received on this site was incorrect or just ridiculous anyway. Not everybody is building they're subaru into a race car, people with 1 million posts on this site think otherwise. some people really need to get off the computer and drive they're car, not just talk about it.

  11. #55
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    You're not helping your case by bringing up a thread that has been inactive for 2 months just to rant about being wrong.

  12. #56
    Registered User dknow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A265 View Post
    You're not helping your case by bringing up a thread that has been inactive for 2 months just to rant about being wrong.
    LOL

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