sway bar or spring first? - Page 2
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 44

This is a discussion on sway bar or spring first? within the Suspension & Wheels forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Agree with most of what matt said. I would wait in the alignment until you get farther down the path ...

  1. #16
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Denver Metro Area
    Posts
    17,617
    I Support ClubWRX
    Agree with most of what matt said. I would wait in the alignment until you get farther down the path to the springs, and I feel that the sways should be before springs.
    Kevin
    Moderator
    Sinister's Blowoff Valve FAQ
    WRX Gas Mileage FAQ
    Sinister's Progress Thread - 430whp 429wtq - Sold
    Firearms Enthusiasts Thread

    The Sheriff's Star at the bottom left corner rates a user's reputation.
    If you found a user's post to be helpful or quite the opposite, please make it known to them by clicking the Star!

  2. Remove Advertisements
    ClubWRX.net
    Advertisements
     

  3. #17
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    You need to consider the entire suspension as a whole. If you're looking to get better handling, the first thing you need to focus on is the only part of the car that touches the road surface: your tires. As soon as the tires lose traction, all money in the world won't help you handle better.

    Once you've gotten your tires selected, you want to start figuring out how to maximize the contact patch of your tires onto the road. A pretty cheap and easy way to get that done is an alignment. For $100 at a local shop and $30-50 in hardware (camber bolts for the rear), you can alter the contact patch that your tire will see as you enter a turn. From the factory, your car is setup to understeer, which in laymens terms, your car will "push wide". There are a variety of factors here, but one is the alignment. OE specs have a bunch of negative camber in the rear, while not very much in the front. Using the stock hardware up front, you can increase the camber (which will provide more contact as the suspension comes under load in a corner), and using the aftermarket bolts in the rear, you can dial out some negative camber; this will make the car a bit more neutral in the corners.

    From there, it's really up to you how to proceed in terms of parts. As a general rule, I feel that body roll should be handled mostly by your struts/springs, and fine-tuned with swaybars. Buying adjustable bars allows you to do that without replacing the units (just altering which hole the endlink connects to). Also, as a general rule, a bigger bar up front is ideal vs larger rear bar.

    I can go on and on about my feelings, but the guys @ TiC have summed it up pretty well already, so I'll just leave a link:
    Sway Bars for 02 WRX - NASIOC
    I've read the sticky on Camber and what it does... a few times, but still it isnt clicking. I will be getting a set of BFGoodrich SportComp2's with my wheels when I get to those (hopefully also this coming summer), but that raises another question... will adjusting my camber on the factory size tires be a waste once I get my wheels and tires? Did the math, theres just shy of half an inch difference between my setup I want and factory, so im sure the answer is yes... but thats an assumption. Also, I can have a shop adjust my alignment and camber, but if I discover it isnt working for me (too much wear, or im understeering more, or over steering too much) Then its back to get dialed in at the shop...could be a costly affair. Is there any way to do this in my garage at home, or is it better left to a shop?

    Also, is there a difference in camber bolt quality? On RallySportDirect im seeing a set of Eibach's for $26, Whiteline's for $36 and OEM replacements for $27. those are fronts only though. The question is, quality. am I better off spending another $10, or would I waste it on the same quality bolt? I'm gonna look for a pair for the rears, obviously.

  4. #18
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Denver Metro Area
    Posts
    17,617
    I Support ClubWRX
    I had eibachs and they lasted 7 years until I sold the car.
    Kevin
    Moderator
    Sinister's Blowoff Valve FAQ
    WRX Gas Mileage FAQ
    Sinister's Progress Thread - 430whp 429wtq - Sold
    Firearms Enthusiasts Thread

    The Sheriff's Star at the bottom left corner rates a user's reputation.
    If you found a user's post to be helpful or quite the opposite, please make it known to them by clicking the Star!

  5. #19
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Denver Metro Area
    Posts
    17,617
    I Support ClubWRX
    Also, caster has to be adjusted by ALKs, camber is what the bolts are for... If you get an alignment to adjust your camber, you have to keep in mind that the inside of the tire will wear quicker with more negative camber. There is a balance to be had.

    Yes, alignment is a game that you have to play. I got a lifetime alignment at Firestone and the tech was a Subaru guy. He hooked it up and let me get specs outside if factory. Most techs won't do that though.
    Kevin
    Moderator
    Sinister's Blowoff Valve FAQ
    WRX Gas Mileage FAQ
    Sinister's Progress Thread - 430whp 429wtq - Sold
    Firearms Enthusiasts Thread

    The Sheriff's Star at the bottom left corner rates a user's reputation.
    If you found a user's post to be helpful or quite the opposite, please make it known to them by clicking the Star!

  6. #20
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    Where did you find them? So many google results for every part, but not for a 2004 WRX.... gets frustrating trying to get things sorted out for parts and prices and having to search google for an hour to find just one thing

    I'm not complaining, although it seems like it. I have no issue finding what im looking for and comparing prices... but its frustrating searching for a specific part and getting every result outside of what i want. So far, if im looking RallySportDirect has what im looking for...but not in this case.

  7. #21
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On a stream bank somewhere
    Posts
    19,662
    I Support ClubWRX
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister
    Agree with most of what matt said. I would wait in the alignment until you get farther down the path to the springs, and I feel that the sways should be before springs.
    We're not necessarily off-base in our sentiments...swaybars should be matched to the struts/springs. If you intend on using OE (or close to) springs, then swaybars are a perfectly fine "first upgrade". If you buy adjustable units, you can alter them to suit the new struts and springs if/when you purchase them.

    As for the alignment, that's dependent on how serious you are on taking the strut/spring assembly apart, and how close you are to doing so. If you're going to push it off for a year, I feel that an alignment is a perfectly valid way to spend your money, and would be better money spent than simply throwing parts on the car. My advice goes back to thinking about the suspension as a whole, rather than individual systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister
    Also, caster has to be adjusted by ALKs, camber is what the bolts are for... If you get an alignment to adjust your camber, you have to keep in mind that the inside of the tire will wear quicker with more negative camber. There is a balance to be had.

    Yes, alignment is a game that you have to play. I got a lifetime alignment at Firestone and the tech was a Subaru guy. He hooked it up and let me get specs outside if factory. Most techs won't do that though.
    Stock camber on the rear is -1.5 from the factory. You're not going to get more than that (often times, you're limited to -1.2-1.3) on the front without aftermarket equipment (plates/bolts). My alignment recommendation doesn't really increase wear all that much compared to OE specs, yet provides a more neutral handling characteristic.



    Another big part of suspension that is often overlooked is bushings (another great TiC post):
    02/03 Impreza refresh where to begin - NASIOC
    Last edited by EJ257; 12-17-2013 at 06:11 PM.
    2005 WRX STi (Mods | Virtual Dyno)

    Resident Tuner @ WTF Tuning, LLC

    "Never trust anything that bleeds for a week and lives ..."

    UNYSOC

  8. #22
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Denver Metro Area
    Posts
    17,617
    I Support ClubWRX
    Oh definitely matt... They're different functions in the same system, I agree.

    OP. If you get adjustable sways, then stiff with stock springs might be great and then later on with stiff springs you can lighten the sways up.

    The more roll you have, the better a negative camber is. So with stiffer sways, you can run less camber. So this reiterates my argument for sways before a more negative cambered alignment.

    The best case scenario is the least camber necessary to maintain that contact patch on hard cornering. If you look at race cars with very stiff springs and very stiff sway bars, they run less camber than you would think for hitting a corner at 100mph. Granted, it's more than we'd run on a street driven car, but still.


    Keep in mind how many miles you drive your car normally without being aggressive.
    Kevin
    Moderator
    Sinister's Blowoff Valve FAQ
    WRX Gas Mileage FAQ
    Sinister's Progress Thread - 430whp 429wtq - Sold
    Firearms Enthusiasts Thread

    The Sheriff's Star at the bottom left corner rates a user's reputation.
    If you found a user's post to be helpful or quite the opposite, please make it known to them by clicking the Star!

  9. #23
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    as a DD... it wont be abused much in the corners. Kinda wondering if I can get away with minimal, if any camber adjustment to save myself the headache of trying to get it balanced just right...

  10. #24
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On a stream bank somewhere
    Posts
    19,662
    I Support ClubWRX
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogdweeb
    as a DD... it wont be abused much in the corners. Kinda wondering if I can get away with minimal, if any camber adjustment to save myself the headache of trying to get it balanced just right...
    As I said, the values you'd be seeing without adjusting front hardware will not really increase tire wear, so I don't see the concern. Max out the front camber on the OE bolts, and dial the rear back a bit. I generally recommend ~.5 higher camber in the front than rear as a starting point (you really need to get involved in Auto-X Test&Tunes to push your car to the limit to see where the "sweet spot" is). I currently run .7 difference (-1.8 F / -1.1 R). However, my suspension setup is a little bit more advanced than yours, so don't take my numbers as gospel.

    Improve Subaru handling modification path:
    1) Tires
    2) Alignment
    3) Parts

    The ONLY reason to skip #2 and proceed with #3 is if said parts will require an alignment anyway (e.g., springs, ALK, etc.).

    Anything under -2 camber shouldn't have any significant impact on tread life. It's when you start getting very aggressive with camber (e.g., Hellaflush) that you have to worry.
    2005 WRX STi (Mods | Virtual Dyno)

    Resident Tuner @ WTF Tuning, LLC

    "Never trust anything that bleeds for a week and lives ..."

    UNYSOC

  11. #25
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    Will I need a realignment with a tire difference of right around .5"? If I will, I may as well stock pile my tires and wheels, springs, throw them all in at the same time and then get it adjusted. thatll put me back a few months in the plan, but if thats the case oh well. Rather do it right and once, then wrong and again.

  12. #26
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    Finally found a set of Tokico D-Spec's, all four corners. I've seen pictures of them in a coilover setup, and pictures of just the strut... The set i found is on raceinspired.com, but has no picture. little confused about them. Coil over or not?

  13. #27
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On a stream bank somewhere
    Posts
    19,662
    I Support ClubWRX
    D-Specs are struts only. They do NOT include springs. Personally, I would opt for Koni Yellows > D-Specs, but that choice is up to you. When you get into that price range for struts, however, your choice of springs should be more aggressive, as well. Otherwise, you're better off with a cheaper alternative. Swift offers the perfect spring for either option:
    1) Swift Sport: perfect for a DD that will see weekend warrior time
    2) Swift Spec-R: perfect for a weekend warrior that will see DD time

    With a 2004 car, your struts are likely on their last legs, and should be replaced anyway.
    Option 1: KYB GR2 are an OE-replacement option that would pair well with the Swift Sport springs (mild drop/rate, with progressive rear rate)
    Option 2: D-Spec/Yellow would be needed, and are a fantastic match for the increased springrate of the Spec-R springs (mild drop / aggressive rate)

    Along with the added initial expense of Option 2, to fully utilize them, you'd need better components for the tophats. To "properly" do Option two, you're looking at $1500 or so, not factoring in an alignment. Option 1 would be more in the $900-1000 range. As I mentioned before, struts are a wear item, so they'll need replacing anyway, so this would be the time to do an upgrade. Option 1 would essentially only cost you the price of the springs compared to a "stock replacement" option.

    As for the alignment in terms of .5" increased contact patch, you do not need to alter your alignment for it. If you were looking for absolute perfection, you would, but I've run the same alignment with 245 and 225 width tires no problem.
    Last edited by EJ257; 12-17-2013 at 07:15 PM.
    2005 WRX STi (Mods | Virtual Dyno)

    Resident Tuner @ WTF Tuning, LLC

    "Never trust anything that bleeds for a week and lives ..."

    UNYSOC

  14. #28
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    Why would you opt for Koni yellows over the D-Specs?

    it isnt a .5" contact patch increase, its 3/4" taller then factory. Rechecked my math. 18" wheel, 40mm profile vs. the 17" 45mm profile on the car now.

  15. #29
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On a stream bank somewhere
    Posts
    19,662
    I Support ClubWRX
    Quote Originally Posted by Hogdwee
    Why would you opt for Koni yellows over the D-Specs?
    Personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogdwee
    it isnt a .5" contact patch increase, its 3/4" taller then factory. Rechecked my math. 18" wheel, 40mm profile vs. the 17" 45mm profile on the car now.
    Contact patch has more to do with the first number of the tire size, not the aspect ratio (which you're quoting).

    First #: Width
    Second #: A/R
    Third #: Wheel

    Further reading:
    https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=46

    Contact patch is how much tire is in contact with the road at a given time.
    Last edited by EJ257; 12-17-2013 at 07:25 PM.
    2005 WRX STi (Mods | Virtual Dyno)

    Resident Tuner @ WTF Tuning, LLC

    "Never trust anything that bleeds for a week and lives ..."

    UNYSOC

  16. #30
    Registered User Hogdweeb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Egremont, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    148
    They're both 225mm contact patch. I was on a different page regarding the tires then you were

    Did the math... for just the yellows and the springs im looking $4700. Not sure where youre getting the price for option 2 from, but youre right. Planned on upgrading the shocks when i replaced the ones in there, simply because im in there, and no sense in spending more money. may as well do the springs too.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •