seems like ive tuned out my tossability.
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This is a discussion on seems like ive tuned out my tossability. within the Suspension & Wheels forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Ok it is just weird. Energy Suspension master chassis bushing pack, installed. correct 17mm rear sway bushings ordered and installed. ...

  1. #1
    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    seems like ive tuned out my tossability.

    Ok it is just weird. Energy Suspension master chassis bushing pack, installed. correct 17mm rear sway bushings ordered and installed. whiteline front sway bushings ordered and installed. after every set i installed my car started getting tighter. Yay, right? no noticeable NVA with the tougher poly bushings...yay. installed my brand new kumho ecsta ast(really cheap 225 50 16) last night. now the car Loves to go fast in a straight line.


    Cornering force however. Ok, wider than stock tires=more force at the wheel. but my turn in is terrible even compared to my (same size) winterforce firestones. road noise is up to but i knew that, the tires have a rep for noise. ya, ROAD NOISE!!! ......WHat???

    Could i have mistakenly tuned my car for straight line? i have a meeting with our alignment tech this weekend so ill get that straightened out thanks to Big Sky it just seems to weird that a set of directional tires would cause a car to not want to turn in like it used to. that or identified a problem that my winter tires was masking. OR...is this just the normal progression of a poly chassis redeux since i have only done the rear trailing arm and sway bar bushings/ front lower C.A. and sway bar with a TIC klunk killer kit and tranny mount bushings on the way. note, no other suspension mods other than...

    Front lower CA. energy susp. black bushings
    Front 20mm sway bar. energy susp. black bushings
    Front factory end links. whiteline susp.(cause the 'master pack' didnt come with em...)

    Rear Trailing arm. Energy susp. blacks
    Rear 17mm sway and endlinks. kit came with 20mm had to order in the 17s. spare parts
    one shifter bushing yet to be installed with the rest of the goodies inbound.

    torque solution pitchie
    TIC klunk killer
    all tranny mount bushings.
    and after checking somebody was nice enough to install group n motor n tranny mounts before i bought the car.

    Thoughts?

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    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Play a bit with pressures. It may be you're feeling sidewall flex upon turn-in; that's the last place left for play, after all, since you've done all the bushings and there is no give there. It could be the Kumhos have a softer sidewall than you expected. Also consider your alignment.
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    Registered User oguitar's Avatar
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    As SD_GR said add more pressure to the rear wheels.

    A thicker rear sway bar will add some oversteer. Just don't go too big or your car will not be stable over rough roads.

    Listen to Big Sky WRX he knows what he is talking about.
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    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    oh yea i have been reading that hole huge thread on alignments. twice. i was thinking on upgrading to a factory 20mm rear sway bar but i like the way it handles already. with the rest of the new bushings installed ill be plum happy i think. i just didnt like the way it steers after i put on the new summer tires. and today our alignment guy says,"want to line up your car today? drive it up and ill show you how." cool! so i am going to be doing the alignment myself.(now i know who to blame if it sux to lol) i get to use our brand new hoffman while Mark starts teaching me four wheel alignment basics.
    ....after i replace a inner tie rod end. i dont know how in the (word) i missed a loose tie rod end with as much time under the car ive put in, but there you go. right inner, .25" play(clunk) at the wheel side to side. it is so klunky it might even be responsible for the 'strut' clunk i thought i have. we'll see after tomorrow. there is moog parts in town(shock!) and i am replacing both inner and outers just to be sure. they arnt to expensive and id rather be safe. one bad...others following is what my car has been telling me so far. damm thing is going to be brand new by the end of summer!

    OOooOO. if i dont listen to big sky he is close enough to drive up and beat me with a stupid stick! id much rather buy him a round later for his help lol.

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    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    hmmm i have been fiddling with tire pressure to see if it would affect the noise these tires make(no change, figured but rats anyway) but i have been playing with equal tire pressures. these max at 51psi cold. started with 45, to 40. then earlier just to 25mph 35psi with no noticeable change.

    maybe start staggering with 45 front 50 rear? thanks SD and Oguitar!

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    I would get a lot more negative front camber, personally. With that little negative camber, your car won't feel like it wants to turn. Most people are concerned about poor tire wear with additional camber. I've been running over two and a half degrees on mine upfront and my winter tires are wearing wonderfully. My summers have a pretty nasty band around the inner edge due to having some foul toe on it for a few months, however.

    In short, nothing you've done should reduce your handling/turning ability.
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    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tirerob View Post
    Attachment 114023



    ok, front tie rods in(inner and outer) clunk is gone and i need to adjust my steering wheel back to straight from 11:30(oops) but here is a pic of after i got the toe set. thoughts? i am definitly shooting for daily driving and highway long distance. see any red flags and ill set em straight. thanks in advance guys



    ok....maybe one or two scca events. you caught me, i r busted lol. Big Sky WRX if your around home base this weekend ill buy a round downtown for ya!

    Front camber needs lower - go for as much negative as you can get with no cross camber. -1.2 to -1.5 if you can get it on BOTH sides. Loosen the upper bolt too, not just the adjustable one, so you can get more out of it. That is a huge part of why your turn in sucks. It seems you were blaming the bushings, but my very first thought was they probably affected the alignment.

    I've don a ton of bushings - none had a single negative impact on handling.

    I'm not tracking your impressions - you said it was only going well in a straight line, then you said it was doing great. The issues you were initially complaining about are reflective of the alignment, but also the rear sway bar is in fact too small. A 20mm rear sway was my very first suspension mod, and frankly it needs to get done for the car to be "tossable".

    Edit - too slow typing....
    Last edited by mycologist; 05-16-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    cool, the car goes up on the rack again tomorrow so i can continue struggling lol. -1.2 to 1.5 camber front and 0 cross camber front and rear. maybe i can level the rear out at -1.5 as well.

    i was blaming the bushings at first until i realized that the changes were positive. i should be blameing my lack of butt dyno time. i'm continually reminding my self that i have only owned this car since november. after replacing my terribly worn inner and outer tie rod ends and setting the toe(pictured) the car drives like crazy good already before final alignment. turn in is WAAAAY better now with the added benefit of much less road noise from the tires. also, it killed the rattle that i thought was the right front strut going bad. still cheezed off that i missed those bad inner tie rod ends. all the work i was doing right Around the problem lol. learned.

    i am looking at upgrading to a 20mm factory sway bar in the future after my next bushing mod sprint. tic's rear klunk killer, torque solutions pitchie, various little tranny mount bushings. alignment again after the klunk killer kit too i think just for practice. more experience for me! i just hope i dont over mod and wind up scca-ing in a race car division haha...oops race anyway.
    Last edited by tirerob; 05-16-2013 at 10:49 PM. Reason: to much thinking

  10. #9
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    You need rear camber bolts to do anything back there. If you get them, run the rear camber .5 degree less negative in the rear than what you get in the front.

    Too bad about those SCCA regs though - the ALK is a nice addition.
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  11. #10
    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    Mmm so like -1.3 front and -.7 rear or something in that ball park. I have seen the anti lift kits and they do look like a nice add but I am a little confused as to how they work. even though install at this point would be a snap...too bad I just replaced all those bushings Haha.

    Edit. With rear camber bolts I meant. Sorry no coffee

    The scca rules I can live with, I shall get my arse handed to me happily and race car happily! I really have no idea what class I am going to wind up in but I know the cars that frequent the Montana scca events. These guys n gals have Massive amounts of skill at the local events. They'd beat me with my own car! But if I make the next one in Bozeman with my friends that would make seven or eight bug eye wagons in all sorts of mods and classes. That'll make a good showing!
    Last edited by tirerob; 05-17-2013 at 07:34 AM. Reason: snooze button

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    The ALK goes in your front control arms... It'll give ya more caster in a nutshell. Should make your steering feel a bit more weighted.

    Just get zero toe all the way around (and whatever rear camber you end up with, unless you choose to get bolts) and get as much even front camber as you can. Easy mode.
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  13. #12
    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    well how rude. went to readjust my toe after centering the steering wheel(got it right this time) and finish up the alignment and the both bolts on the front struts are frozen solid. not so bad in the rear but i am still going to have to use a impact on the nuts before getting to the alignment. so to drown myself in pity i ordered even more bushings!

    TIC klunk killer for softys
    TIC lateral link bushings
    TIC tranny x bushings

    subaru spt shift bushings front and rear
    spt battery tie down(hey i dont have one at all!!!)

    torque solution pitch stop.

    there that should keep me busy until i get those nasty bolts loose! i know that ill be in for a rear toe reset replacing the lateral links bushings (at least) but what about the rear diff bushings? i dont have a lot of free time on the rack so ill probably do as much as i can before the laterals, or make a big push with the lats and klunk killer.


    oh, our alignment guru noticed the first time i racked my car for self alignment i forgot to pull the slide pins from the front slip plates. Doh! seeewww i fixed that little bit of bad when i straightened the wheel out. whatta rookie! hahahah
    Last edited by tirerob; 05-22-2013 at 01:17 AM. Reason: fixing with mods=yay.

  14. #13
    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    alright here we go. got the camber nuts loose with the help of impact and six foot cheater bar. hoping the adjustment isnt as rusted. ya....the 'alignment' the dealer did must have been a check only because nothing has been touched under here for years. but its all hooked up and i am ready to get some new numbers!


    and it looks like the rust might be winning. even with the other bolts nearly finger loose and a fair bit of tugging/pulling i can only get -.9 camber up front. nice thing is it is equal on both sides. think i might gain anything by removing the knuckle from the strut and cleaning up anything crappy between the two?

    oh, i know i adjusted the camber but now my toe settings front are all wacky. like -.35l and -.40r wacky. going to tighten up and drive/ come back and re set up again to check just to be sure. i didnt think it would affect it so much
    Last edited by tirerob; 05-27-2013 at 04:03 PM.

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    Registered User tirerob's Avatar
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    Attachment 114224


    now This feels like a result! driving is Way better now, although while the car is down for moar bushings next weekend i am going to figure out why i could only dial in -1.0L and -.9R camber. it drives so well now its redonkulas.

    still thinking about rear camber bolts though. gotta finish up with the mods i have coming. and i would like to get to at least -1.2 or -1.3 camber up front.

  16. #15
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tirerob View Post
    Attachment 114224


    now This feels like a result! driving is Way better now, although while the car is down for moar bushings next weekend i am going to figure out why i could only dial in -1.0L and -.9R camber. it drives so well now its redonkulas.

    still thinking about rear camber bolts though. gotta finish up with the mods i have coming. and i would like to get to at least -1.2 or -1.3 camber up front.
    That had to make a difference. It looks nice except the camber in the front, but even that is decent (much better than stock).

    Did you loosen both bolts? The Whiteline Com-C top hats would get you a bunch more camber adjustability in the front and more caster too, plus a firmer bushing in there. You could probably install both in a couple of hours or less.
    "From a little spark may burst a mighty flame." - Dante
    "The stitch is lost unless the thread is knotted." - Italian proverb

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