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stage 2 gti vs VF48 WRX

23K views 134 replies 18 participants last post by  gigabytexbc 
#1 ·
ok so like it says, i have an 05 wrx with a vf48(used to have vf34 but it went) and i made 280/275 on a dynojet at p&l motorsports tuned by jorge. last night on the highway i ran a gti. did 4 pulls lost each one by about 3 car lengths each time. not sure of speed but figure 60/70-120. lost worst when he wanted to do a 3rd gear pull because i wasn't in torque range so had to wait for spool. so i told him to stop off some where cause i'm a HUGE vw fan next to subie. well, he's apr stage 2 running 93 octane with just forge dv and a downpipe that's all. he said it's a special apr tune that they made for a limited time that basically maxes out everything including the fuel pump which he'd like to get a new one. he said a guy that had the tune before him put down something like 270-280whp. my question is how the hell did he beat me THAT bad on the highway i understand drivetrain loss but THAT bad? also he weighs more than i do and no i'm a good driver haha so just rule that out. i'm a car noobie and not very smart at things of this nature. if bodybuilding is your thing i'm the expert there ;) but this no, so thanks for the info guys.
 
#2 ·
Ahh, another victim of the "FWD in 3rd gear" trick. Seriously, the FWD turbo crowd just can't wait to hit 3rd because that's the one where the fun really starts.

They do have much less drivetrain loss. Also you may make similar peak power but he may have more area under the curve.
 
#4 · (Edited)
John what's a good way to combat FWD cars on the highway? The drivetrain loss on AWD cars is bothersome or is it a matter of mechanics in that moving 2 wheels will be easier then moving 4 wheels even if both cars are powered evenly.

I ran a VW Golf not sure of the model since it was dark, he didnt seem to have a enough to keep up with me, but this was on some twisties - the one straight road we had my TD04 with spt exhaust and avo filter seem'd to be beating up on him.

OP - have you thought about a better tune/map?
 
#7 · (Edited)
well i'm on a conservative tune by jorge at p&l now for 280 whp 275ftlb. peak torque at 3700, max hp hits 5.5k(i have dyno graph in frame next to me haha)and holds 280 to 7k+. torque slowly declines right at 5k this was done 3rd gear pull i believe. no need to retune it as someone said it's fine for me now plus, here's the new question. i want an 09 wrx and WILL have one in the spring selling mine fyi. now i plan on going stage 2 right away then later on adding the fuel pump, bigger tmic and custom tune since a lot of people have been getting great numbers. now, how would a basic stage 2 09, now remember this is 09 wrx, stack up against this car that i raced that put 3 car lengths on me. is the powerband of the newer wrxs much better? remember, i'm a personal trainer not a mechanic or super intelligent car person haha so sorry if i seem stupid. i'm debating now gti vs 09 wrx
 
#8 ·
I have an 09 stage 2 wrx runs great but its still hard to hang with anytype of FWD car with same power range......tell him you wanna run from a dead dig......It won't even be close.......its funny cause all the people around my area only wanna run from a roll b/c they know the consequences
 
#17 · (Edited)
have you ever ran a modded gti or ms3? i know wrx with the vf52 and supporting mods can make over 310whp easily i think that should be enough to stomp a 280whp gti, that's all i want haha. do you mean you can't stick with them or it's pretty much a dead even race from a roll at highway speeds? sorry i just do A LOT of highway driving(most of my races are done here) and i'm just a big awd guy because of the chicago winters but also a highway pull kind of guy.
 
#20 · (Edited)
question really is, how much power would i have to put down on an awd car to beat a gti or similar fwd car putting down 280whp or so on an 09 wrx. i have a c6 corvette 6 speed btw but that's my summer and spring car and barely gets any miles on it throughout the year, just got a GREAT deal on it and i share it with my father so if i really want to beat these cars that's all i'd have to bring out. i'm just concerned about my daily driver haha because both the 09 wrx and gti for the money and keeping a stock turbo are easy to upgrade. just curious once again how much hp would i have to be making on an 09 wrx to pull a gti fwd car making roughly 280whp since that's what they can top out about on the stock turbo
 
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#21 ·
What kind of Corvette is it? Non Z06? You could probably throw some bolt on mods on that (headers/exhaust, intake, cams, tune) and be flying.

09 WRX stock turbo is good for some power. One of the best turbos they have put on a WRX in a while. Apparently the stock turbo on the GTI has potential too. I wasn't aware of that until tonight. Cobalt SS stock turbo is also good for up to 350whp+ 400wtq. You wouldn't be too bad off with that either. Much cheaper too.

But in answer to your question... I really don't know the math on how much power you would need to put down in X AWD car to beat Y FWD/RWD car. I just know if the power is fairly equal (as well as weight, gearing), a 2WD car is going to win every time from a roll. But I suppose to beat a 280whp FWD car (how much do those GTIs weigh anyways?) you might anywhere from 300-340whp on the AWD WRX? :confused: - I don't know to be exact.
 
#22 · (Edited)
yep, i figured in that range 300 whp plus that is. it's more of a money issue(first time in 2 cars i'm on my own for this with no parents) i'll have to see if 09s go down in price by march which is when i plan on getting the new one. the cobalts are fast but...imo it's not worth having to sit in that interior. i need at least some style interior/exterior but that's once again an opinion thing. i'm selling mine because i'm already at 80k miles and it's started to show it's wear and no more warranty. want to get rid of it while it's still in good condition and can get some money for it. pretty much how i sold my last car.

i'd love to get a mazdaspeed3 but i've heard bad things about the engine and you don't get moonroof or heated seats 2 things of which i use greatly now even in my wrx.

the c6 corvette is just a regular in monterey red, but trust me...it's a beast none the less and since it's more my dad's he's the type of guy who says "just leave the damn thing alone" even though he put flowmasters on the mustang i think he's going through his midlife crisis so i might get lucky. just raw power step on the gas and there is just so much torque and *boner*. wish i could take him out right now but he's under his blanket haha. "let's face it, the vette gets em wet".

i still think i'd rather have the gti vs the ms3 because they are both at great prices right now. i'd get an 06-07 wrx but i'd have to turbo swap again and do the whole injector thing special tune etc... i just don't feel like doing it again. it was fine with just the downpipe and accessport back in the day but nooo i needed more power. these cars nowadays are just sick esp. on the highway with the stock turbo.

on a side note...i would get myself another rwd car such as an older SS or similar but i've driven one in the snow and idc how much sand you put in the trunk or how good your winter tires are...it sucks in these chicago winters and just isn't worth it. fwd i can handle and had to handle for 3 winters then i went with my first subaru.
 
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#23 ·
the cobalts are fast but...imo it's not worth having to sit in that interior. i need at least some style interior/exterior but that's once again an opinion thing. i'm selling mine because i'm already at 80k miles and it's started to show it's wear and no more warranty. want to get rid of it while it's still in good condition and can get some money for it. pretty much how i sold my last car.
I'm not going to try to talk you into the Cobalt SS and say that the interior is awesome or anything. I suppose if you enjoy things like heated leather seats, etc, the Cobalt SS doesn't offer that. I found the interior to be fairly decent though. Especially if you go with black.



The overall styling of the car is pretty modest, I agree. No huge wing (optional), no hood scoops/vents, no bright colored logos all over the thing, etc. I like the sleeper look anyways. Everyone is surprised when they get walked by a rental car variant SS.

Anyways, you seem pretty open minded about car choices. You're not against imports or domestics and I find that admirable. All I would do is urge you to go test drive a Cobalt SS maybe. Just see if you like it. You mentioned a warranty being a concern of yours and the SS comes with a 100,000 mile warranty. You can also get the factory dealer upgraded power package -GMTunerSource.com - Cobalt SS LNF Turbo Upgrade Kit: Official Update - which pushes it to 290hp and 320tq or so. Factory warranty intact. Costs $549.

Like I said though, the 09 WRX and MS3 would be good choices also. It all comes down to personal preference and opinion like you said. Just test drive all these cars you want and feel it out.

Keep an open mind and you'll be happy. I wish I could go back in time and buy a Cobalt SS though, personally. I think the bang-for-the-buck simply can't be beat. Brembo brakes, 18in wheels, flat foot shifting and launch control stock, dealer warrantied upgraded tuning, 100k warranty, and a stock turbo that will get you into the 350whp range quickly.

YouTube - Chevy Cobalt SS vs. 09 WRX, Mazdaspeed 3, and Four Other Sport Compacts - Car and Driver

Good luck man and let us know!
 
#24 ·
All this talk of a FWD car that makes X horsepower at the wheels, beating a AWD car with X horsepower at the wheels makes my head spin.

HP is purely a function of torque. The torque you measure as "WHEEL TORQUE" (consequently whp), is measured AT the wheels. I.E. AFTER ALL DRIVETRAIN LOSSES!!!

If you took two cars, one had AWD, and one had FWD. Now give them the same motors, the same gear ratios in the tranny, and the same gear ratio in the rear end, the same curb weight. (You'll obviously have to tune the AWD car to have a higher CRANK hp value to equate to the same WHEEL hp value as the FWD car)

Now assuming you had done this, guess what? The race would be a tie. Not from a dig, but from a roll as long as you were not traction limited, yes.

A 300 whp FWD does not magically make more than 300whp when it beats a 300whp AWD car. It simply has one of the following: larger power band/weighs less/has better gearing/or in some cases, better aero.
 
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#25 · (Edited)
If you took two cars, one had AWD, and one had FWD. Now give them the same motors, the same gear ratios in the tranny, and the same gear ratio in the rear end, the same curb weight. (You'll obviously have to tune the AWD car to have a higher CRANK hp value to equate to the same WHEEL hp value as the FWD car)

Now assuming you had done this, guess what? The race would be a tie. Not from a dig, but from a roll as long as you were not traction limited, yes.

A 300 whp FWD does not magically make more than 300whp when it beats a 300whp AWD car. It simply has one of the following: larger power band/weighs less/has better gearing/or in some cases, better aero.

So you're saying that two cars completely identical, one AWD and one FWD, both with the equal amount of WHP, a race from a roll would be a tie? :confused1 That's a negative ghost rider. Especially not from a roll!

Assuming you could even find 2 completely identical cars to compare with AWD/FWD/RWD options, the test would be inconclusive as any AWD drivetrain will weigh more than a 2WD drivetrain. Simple.

The numbers we have been discussing in the last few posts have all been WHP/WTQ numbers. The OP wanted to know how much WHP he might need to put down in his WRX to beat the 280WHP GTI that beat him. I don't know the exact number, but I do know it's going to need to be more than 280WHP ;)

Perhaps something to start looking into would be power-to-weight-ratios (and I mean WHP/WTQ numbers), as I'm certain not many of us have access to or the inclination to be wind tunnel testing our cars for aerodynamic properties.
 
#29 · (Edited)
all i know is that i got spanked by a stage 2 gti with stock fuel pump that honestly i doubt was putting down 280whp probably more like 260 whp(since ive searched all over and that's the most i'm seeing these cars put down) and i make 280/275 by jorge at p&l. from about 50+ he had me easily and he stated that down low is even more impressive. he respected the fact that from a dig i'd kill him but we both admitted that around here, just no one races from a dig unfortunately. driving was fine each time though i was doing the honking and he got a little jump i mean, there was no way i was catching or even gaining it was straight pulling. gti's have absolutely no turbo lag and it's like instant power to the wheels hence why i think he got the jump and just kept going. i'm sure a 2.5L wrx would fare much better because much less lag. look at the video on youtube of the stage 2 gti racing the 18g wrx which put down more power than i did and it was pretty much an even race with the gti actually keeping ahead quite a bit. the 18g turbo is a much better highway turbo than the vf48 as well and even just a stage 2 gti hung around. i think it's just because the gti has INSTANT power and it doesn't have to worry about peak power. the powerband is very nice. also, perhaps the gearing is better but they weight i think 400lbs heavier than my wrx and we both had a passenger.
 
#30 ·
FWD's advantage from a roll isn't power to weight and it isn't aerodynamics. It's because a FWD transaxle is more efficient than both AWD and RWD setups. Other than packaging it was one of their most touted benefits when they came on the scene.

I tried turbo FWD once and it was great on the highway but I'd hate to try to manage it at the power level my car will have in a few weeks (engine build). Without slicks and a prepped track it'd be useless until after 100. With AWD you take being able to punch it from 30 or 60 for granted.
 
#31 ·
yes very true, wow some intelligent answers you guys are much better than nasioc haha should have been here all these years. i won't be making crazy power so it shouldn't be TO bad plus when i hit it in the vette it just goes sideways so i'm used to that though it is nice with awd to not have to worry.
 
#32 ·
It's all about what culture you're looking for. You can find any info you need on Nasioc, if you're willing to deal with the attitude. We're biased a bit more on the friendly side here..
 
#33 · (Edited)
oh i agree completely. so props to you guys. i just honestly want a nice car that is very nice and easy to drive around town. i have to admit mine sucks to drive around for a daily driver that's why i take my sisters jetta out sometimes it's just that much easier to drive around more torquey. i go downtown(chicago) a lot and having that torque is nice because down there you have to zoom in and out. i'm tired of being on the highway at 70 mph and having it at 3200 rpms since i do a lot of highway driving. i'd hate to lose the aspect of not being able to wave to my subie brothers but the vdub club are just as nice from my experience. not looking to go super fast since no matter what someone else is always faster(hell look what this gti did to me). i still want a little "sporty" tuner car so that's why i'm looking in this area of cars. just want an all around quick car that is nice to drive around town and drives nicer on the highway. in all honestly interior means a lot to me looking for something nice and more grown up hence why i think gti is for me. i don't ever want to have to do a turbo swap again etc... because it just costs to much $$$ and i WANT my heated seats god i love mine right now ha. i'd hate to lose AWD but honestly it doesn't help THAT much around corners(overrated or at least with all seasons tires it is) and is only good for straight line without spinning tires which is nice but i can deal without i have in the past. just to experiment i took my sisters jetta out last night right after it snowed and i did just fine and she just has regular tires. the 09 wrxs i absolutely love but i need something more affordable.
 
#35 ·
haha no no i took into account everything you said and my buddy has one. i have fitment issues inside it and idk just kind of want a hatchback and the interior you're right isn't THAT bad but it doesn't compare, at least imo to an ms3 or gti, gti being the best i've been in. haven't sat in a new 09 wrx yet but it's out of my price range anyways. i've always debated the ms3 but it doesn't have heated seats but i know you can talk the dealer into adding them in according to forums. i've heard the powerband sucks though. still haven't test driven any of these cars so what do i know.
 
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#36 ·
still haven't test driven any of these cars so what do i know.
That's probably key right there :D

Go test drive them all and report back to us! Seriously, it could be good for you and for all of us following the discussion! Check out the MS3, the GTi, Cobalt SS, and the 09 WRX. Prices aside, find the one that you like the most. Feel out the dealerships too, see which ones you like the most.

Found a cool little Edmunds review/comparison between the Cobalt SS and VW GTI, check it out.

"Face-Off Tournament: Chevy Cobalt SS vs Volkswagen GTI" Edmunds Daily

However, all those persnickety concerns fade once I'm behind the wheel and enjoying the car. You can have your GTI's soft-touch materials and soft performance; I'll gladly take some hard plastic trim in exchange for more hard-core performance.
That's what one guy said with regard to the interior of the SS vs the GTI. :thumbup:
 
#37 ·
yea you're right i should test drive. i have a friend who has an ms3 so i can test drive that, surprised i haven't yet and my new buddy with the gti. i've never test driven at a dealership though just kind of ehhhh about it. what IS nice about the ms3 though is that i could continue to get tuned by my same tuner who has recently started tuning mazdas and he's great. plus performance for dead cheap. just have to finally sit in one and try it out
 
#38 ·
a logical discussion of awd vs the world. i like.:thumbup: I'm not sure where i read it nor could i being to explain how it works but i heard that drive train lose increases with aerodynamic drag. the engine has to work harder to punch the car through the air. makes sense but i don't know if the increase is exponentially greater for awd vs fwd. say a sti has 25% lose at 60mph does it have 30% at 100 ? and if a srt has 20% at 60 does it have the same 10% increase or is it less? i dunno. but in the real world is shows time and time again that rwd/fwd can take a awd with all things else pretty equal from a roll. another way to look at it is if you ever look at awd cars vs others car with similar hp/weight ratios the other cars almost always have a higher trap speed in the quarter mile.
 
#45 ·
I was thinking of this exact same thing at work today and i couldn't decide on anything.

I would imagine the loss would change with RPM and load. How much will it change is anyone's guess, but I think your right in thinking that the % change will be different for FWD/RWD/AWD.

The only thing i was pointing out earlier was that HP at the wheel, is HP at the wheels for any car. Once that power is measured at the wheels, all drivetrain losses at that point have already been accounted for. Now in real world loading conditions, your numbers to the wheels will vary.
 
#39 ·
I ran a Cobalt ss from 80 to 135 he has a tbe, cai, and his ecu has been played with (not sure what programmer) but he got me by about a car length...........at the time i only had a cai and a cat back..........i'm sure now that i'm stage 2 that i'd totally spank him
 
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