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Trust/Greddy Japan files for bankruptcy

4K views 59 replies 19 participants last post by  NjBuGeyEdWRX 
#1 ·
#2 ·
#4 · (Edited)
You've got to think of the big picture here. Greddy was among the Japanese manufacturers that helped kick-start the import aftermarket industry in the 1990s. They helped bring modifying imports to the forefront, creating the multi-billion dollar industry that we have today. Without companies like Greddy that helped create the foundation of aftermarket parts that we have today, who knows if Subaru, Mitsubishi, or anyone else would've even considered bringing over a car geared toward the tuner market. Trust/Greddy's decline in the industry is a sign of the times...our struggling economy, knock-off and/or cheap parts that have no R&D behind them, parts being *****d out at or below cost, and the overall drop in aftermarket sales throughout the industry. While there could be many reasons why Trust/Greddy is filing for bankruptcy, one definitely has to consider the big picture and think about the direction the industry as a whole is moving toward. You never know...HKS, Cusco, AEM, Volk...any or all of them very well could be next given how the market is struggling right now. And if they go, what do we have left? I sure as hell won't be happy if Agency Power is the only thing I can buy in a couple years (but then again, they won't have any designs to copy from either :wiggles: )
 
#7 · (Edited)
Lowering prices isn't necessarily going to solve the problem. There's still time and effort that goes into R&D for products, not to mention manufacturing, import costs, and shipping of course. Many products are also more specialized per application...you can't use the same struts for both an STI and Evo, not just because they simply won't fit, but also because they require different spring rates and dampening (although some companies have gotten around that, ending up with a ****ty product). This isn't the case for car audio...a 12-inch sub is a 12-inch sub, and a single-DIN deck is a single-DIN deck. Generally speaking, electronics such as car audio also don't have the same overhead costs for manufacturing and shipping as most car parts do, not to mention the profit margins for car audio blows away those of car parts. Even for brands made here in the US, the deepest wholesales are generally 25% off retail at the very most, whereas you're looking at 50% for most car audio equipment.
 
#6 ·
Now correct me if I'm wrong here gents, but corporate bankruptcy does not necessarily mean the doors are closing. It usually means a re-org is coming and the company reevaluates market share, designs and targets, comes back with a vengeance.

So we very well may not have heard the last of old greddy.

Armin is right however, Greddy is a "blue chip" of sorts in the autoparts world. If they do close their doors it will be a huge blow, yet hopefully their absence will spawn enough business to their competitors that they will get through ok.

In a way its funny: In the early 2000's a couldn't throw a rock without hitting a tuning shop. Now almost everyone around here has closed up its doors. The largest of which was Motorsport Dynamics of Sacramento, who had a huge facility, stocked everything, dyno's, etc. and had been open for years. I remember going there in 2001 and seeing full JDM type R swaps being done, full motor builds, custom turbo swaps, RHD conversions, I felt like a kid in a candy store. Sadly a year ago or so they just quietly closed. :sadwave: I have noticed motorcycle shops seem to have the same trend...how many "Billbo's custom chopper shops" are still open?
 
#8 ·
Now correct me if I'm wrong here gents, but corporate bankruptcy does not necessarily mean the doors are closing. It usually means a re-org is coming and the company reevaluates market share, designs and targets, comes back with a vengeance.


Thats all correct, it should make all contracts null and void, and gives them a chance to restart. However their credit records will have FILED FOR BANKRUPTCY all over it, well at least in the states. Who knows about Japan's policy.
 
#15 ·
Unfortunately Greedy probably isn't going to be going anywhere. More than likely just a shuffling of paperwork and sweeping some debt and worker benefits under the rug.

Greedy may have been something at one time, but their time has come and gone. I guess horrible customer service, non-involvement in the community and not standing behind their products finally caught up with them.
 
#16 ·
oem vs aftermarket... the biggest factor is economy of scale. an oem strut spreads the r&d & mfg/transportation/ etc over a much larger population. think of it this way: every imprezza has 4 oem struts on it out the door. how many imprezzas will have 4 of them replaced with something from the performance aftermarket? most replacements will be another oem unit.
 
#17 ·
It IS a sad day. Like Verdugo said, lowering prices wont help. More than likely, it'll compound the problem, given the amount of cash dumped into R+D, materials and production of the parts.

Yeah, Greddy'll still be around. In fact, I bet they held Trust up for a while, given that the yen is worth MUCH less than the dollar. But without the support from Trust, and the aforementioned lack of involvement and crummy customer support, my questions is how long will GReddy stay afloat?

I think there were a couple signs that showed this coming though. I remember either last year or the year before, GReddy had a "fire sale" at their warehouse in California, even selling one-off and out-of-production parts off their shelves. I cant remember if it was annual (Which I doubt) or if it was spontanious, but it really made me curious...

It'd be awesome if someone bought out Trust to save them..
 
#18 · (Edited)
Lowering prices WILL help (whatever it's worth).... Work on my example above... Many of you will not remember the late 80's (ok, 89-95) Sound market went to crap right after this, you couldn't touch a nice deck for less than 600.00, now , decent ones are around 200.00-300.00, GReddy is doing the same thing HKS is doing.... poking ppl in the arse triple what the cost AND R&D is. If I can make an exhaust to maximize flow under my car for close to 200.00, then why is HKS,Greddy charging 700.00 EACH time??? The same goes for these pro tuners. Get my car tuned @ MZM in Austin, TX was 400.00 over a yr ago. NOW it's 550.00.... for what ? An hour and a half's worth of work ? :screwy:

It's going on ALL over this country. Look at your insurance rates, just because some 16 year old (stereotype) flipped a WRX 4 years ago, is no reason to jack MY rates up now.

I do agree, you all know how to debate... Thanks for the chats.
 
#19 ·
I can understand being frustrated with rising prices, especially with tunes. Tunes aren't affected by the cost of raw materials, shipping costs, customs fees, or things of that nature. However, let's take a look at Greddy and HKS since you used them as an example.

The HKS Carbon Ti catback has a retail price of $895. It had this same retail price back in 2002, and the price didn't go down, nor went up. Add in the rising price of aluminum, carbon fiber, and oil (for shipping) and one would expect this price to go up, but it didn't. Thus, HKS was okay with making less proft margin on their exhaust despite their cost of manufacturing and shipping going up quite a bit. Moreover, they haven't changed their discount level to their dealers either, so dealers are still able to sell this exhaust for less than $895.

Greddy on the other hand, has also kept prices the same, however they cut dealer discounts, in the name of curbing Internet price wars. Thus, a dealer who used to get 35% off retail would then only get 20% off retail. By doing that, in essence all selling prices go up, but they don't go higher than than MSRP, plus dealers can no longer ***** out Greddy's products. Many people associated this with Greddy pricing going up, but in reality it really didn't. In fact, the only real price increase Greddy's made over the past 2 years has been maybe $10 or $20 to help account for the higher shipping costs from Japan.

Now, this issue with price whoring seems to be something that no one (not even Greddy) has been willing to mention as part of their demise. Why? Because it alienates their dealers and their customers. Dealers don't want to be called out for whoring out prices, and consumers don't want to be called cheapasses either. This is a problem that Greddy had way before there was any sign of financial crisis, by the pure and simple fact that they did not enforce any type of Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) policy on their dealers. Please don't get this confused with price fixing...price fixing is illegal and by law, it's defined as a company (or the government) fixing a sale price on a product or service, with no freedom of selling higher or lower than that price. MAP only refers to advertised pricing, whether it's on a forum sale, on a website, on eBay, or in a print ad. Many companies are very strict on MAP policies, including Cobb Tuning, Kartboy, and AEM...and by them staying strict on it, the value of their product stays consistent and dealers do not ***** out their products, which is what has plagued Greddy for quite a long time.

Finally, I don't believe it's a fair to compare a $200 exhaust that you fabricated yourself to an exhaust from Greddy or HKS. You 1) have the know-how to fabricate it yourself and didn't have to pay someone to do it, 2) don't have to pay for distribution of your exhaust worldwide (which includes shipping, packaging, and customs fees), 3) you didn't have to pay for marketing the exhaust, 4) you don't have to pay for mass production of the exhaust, and 5) you probably didn't come up with several different designs and test all of them to figure out which either flowed the best or gave the best balance of flow, sound, and looks. But, let's say that you take all of these into account and maybe (hypothetically speaking) the final cost with everything above included comes to $450. Is it fair for a business, no matter who big or small their are, to sell this exhaust for say, $500 MSRP? Or maybe even $550? That leaves absolutely no room for any wholesale dealers, so it'd be direct from the company, and only direct from the company. Put it together with an average of $50 shipping for a full catback exhaust, and you're at say $600 total. Now, let's say you want to give enough room to do wholesale, since it's hard for a company to do all of their sales without some type of distribution. In order to give a wholesale company even 10% margin and for you to make 20%, you'll need to raise the MSRP to about $650. But wait! The Greddy Ti-C catback has an MSRP of $635, and the HKS Hi-Power has an MSRP of $625!

Anyway, the exact pricing to the cent isn't the point. The point is...costs go up very fast once you start aiming at a global market. If you want to make your own exhaust to save money out of your own pocket, more power to you, but it just isn't fair to compare it to a business that has overhead, shipping, materials, and marketing costs to account for. After all, your mom can knit you a sweater for free, but you're not going to be able to sell that same sweater without a lot of added costs involved.

Since we're on the subject of exhaust pricing, here's some more food for thought. People balk at the price of Greddy, HKS, or any other JDM exhaust, but the same people who complain about "paying for JDM bling" have no problem paying $675 + shipping for a Cobb Tuning catback. It's not like the welds and finish are 10 times better on the Cobb exhaust compared to the "JDM bling" exhausts. In fact, often times I've seen better welds on the Chinese-made Invidia exhausts than on Cobb's or any of the JDM exhausts. Thus, what gives here?
 
#20 ·
Another thing I forgot to mention since you mentioned the car audio market... let's not forget that during the time that you mention (89-95), we saw a HUGE step forward in computers and other electronic devices, which definitely includes car audio. CD players used to be stupid expensive, but as companies were able to make technology cheaper and smaller, costs went down. Hell, the early 90s was like the pinnacle of the Super Nintendo, and look where we are now with video games. While this same technological leap has helped streamline the R&D and manufacturing processes, raw materials, distribution, marketing, have all either stayed the same or gone up significantly since then. On top of that, you still have to pay for the technology to streamline the process too, so there's either an added or an offset cost to technological steps forward.

Either way, you can't say that all of the car audio companies just decided to drop prices because they felt like it. They dropped prices because their costs went down, which isn't necessarily the case with most car parts.
 
#21 · (Edited)
OK Armin I'd like to address a few things in your debate breakdown thingymabobber.

* HKS, Greddy, Cobb Tuning, may do their R&D, but they all send their stuff to China/Taiwan to be manufactured. Cobb started very recently ~1 year or so ago which is why you saw the sudden weld quality drop. This makes labor super super cheap because of their minimum wage and labor laws.

* These systems once designed cost at most $70 a piece to manufacture and thats being generous.

* To ship a container of crap (about 50 exhausts) over the water is about $450 to a commercial carrier on the slow boat a year ago when I checked. So ~$9 an exhaust shipped on the slow boat (Yes I know airmail is ~$250 a piece but I highly doubt a company airmails every single exhaust. no way)

* Lets say pretty labels and boxes cost $5 each cause they buy so many.

* On the design front lets face it...HKS, Greddy, Bobs exhaust does not reinvent the wheel every time. Yes they minimize bends and might make a few quick prototypes (with a cheap crush bender) and test fitment and mufflers before sending the CNC CAD file over the water. They do not reinvent and redesign the muffler every single time, hell most of them use OTS muffler carcuses from their exhaust supplier in indoChina with a fancy name stamped on it. Don't believe me? Goto SEMA and see for yourself. At most lets say design costs $2000, but they plan on making 2,000 units which equals ~ $1 a muffler. Some models may be higher, some may not need any designing. For example I highly doubt they redesigned the Greddy Catback for every year between 2002-2007 to fit the Impreza. But I do bet they sold way way more than 2000 units, and face it their design on that model is not ground breakingly complex by any means.

* Marketing varies, lets say $3 an exhaust.

That puts the total at ~$88 not counting power to keep the lights on, or shipping it to the dealer at his expense. But I'll play lets say that between the customer service department, keeping the lights on and receptionist it costs another $88. So now your catback is $176, add 25% profit = ~$220 shipped to the Greddy authorized dealer. So now Anything between $635 and $220 is either Greddy's gravy or the dealers gravy. Now it could be that Greddy enforces a policy of 20% only discount to dealers, in which case the rest is their gravy.

Their ultimate demise in my mind was their lack of innovation in an ever changing market. Its the same old story. A young company builds its way up to the top on innovative ideas, great service and a good bottom line. Company gets fat and lazy; enter competition, lack of innovation, no rainy day fund, a declining market and bankruptcy results.

Nothing new and It will continue to occur long after you and I are gone.
 
#22 · (Edited)
OK Armin I'd like to address a few things in your debate breakdown thingymabobber.

* HKS, Greddy, Cobb Tuning, may do their R&D, but they all send their stuff to China/Taiwan to be manufactured. Cobb started very recently ~1 year or so ago which is why you saw the sudden weld quality drop. This makes labor super super cheap because of their minimum wage and labor laws.
I know that this is certainly the case with some of their products, such as their suspension...but I don't think that's quite the case with others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically it would be illegal for Greddy to stamp "Made in Japan" on their exhaust if it was indeed made in China/Taiwan. If that's true, then I suppose every Greddy exhaust I've seen has been breaking the law.

* These systems once designed cost at most $70 a piece to manufacture and thats being generous.

* To ship a container of crap (about 50 exhausts) over the water is about $450 to a commercial carrier on the slow boat a year ago when I checked. So ~$9 an exhaust shipped on the slow boat (Yes I know airmail is ~$250 a piece but I highly doubt a company airmails every single exhaust. no way)

* Lets say pretty labels and boxes cost $5 each cause they buy so many.
I've had a lot of experience with shipping and manufacturing recently due to some of the things we're involved in, such as Do-Luck products. I've seen the cost of manufacturing of an exhaust made in China/Taiwan to be as high as $300-400 before shipping. Maybe that manufacturing company is ripping people off, I don't know...but that just doesn't match up with what I've seen on my side of the industry.

As far as shipping goes, it seems to vary. We shipped a bunch of Do-Luck stuff earlier this year on the slow boat and it was easily around $500 for not even a quarter the size of a full container. Let's not forget shipping within the country too. On average, a catback exhaust will cost around $50 to ship anywhere in the lower 48 states.

* On the design front lets face it...HKS, Greddy, Bobs exhaust does not reinvent the wheel every time. Yes they minimize bends and might make a few quick prototypes (with a cheap crush bender) and test fitment and mufflers before sending the CNC CAD file over the water. They do not reinvent and redesign the muffler every single time, hell most of them use OTS muffler carcuses from their exhaust supplier in indoChina with a fancy name stamped on it. Don't believe me? Goto SEMA and see for yourself. At most lets say design costs $2000, but they plan on making 2,000 units which equals ~ $1 a muffler. Some models may be higher, some may not need any designing. For example I highly doubt they redesigned the Greddy Catback for every year between 2002-2007 to fit the Impreza. But I do bet they sold way way more than 2000 units, and face it their design on that model is not ground breakingly complex by any means.
I agree, they don't have to reinvent the wheel, but the overall cost of manufacturing, especially when it comes to a multitude of different vehicles, is where that cost is significantly higher for a larger company than Bob in his basement. A good company will take the time to R&D each exhaust per application to ensure it provides the gains they want, and that isn't cheap...but don't mistake that for me saying that Greddy or HKS do that either. Not everyone is like StopTech in that sense :)

* Marketing varies, lets say $3 an exhaust.
Marketing isn't going to be as cheap as that sounds, especially good marketing. Magazine ads for example are nowhere near cheap. A tiny ad in the back of D-Sport Magazine costs $375 per issue...that's about $4500 per year. That 4-color, full 1-page ad in Modified Mag costs $8450 per issue. That number's straight out of the Primedia 2008 Media Kit. The Internet is by far the cheapest form of advertising for any business, but a company will not be able to get as large as Greddy or HKS on Internet marketing alone.

Their ultimate demise in my mind was their lack of innovation in an ever changing market. Its the same old story. A young company builds its way up to the top on innovative ideas, great service and a good bottom line, gets fat, enter competition, lack of innovation and bankruptcy results.

It will continue to occur long after you and I are gone.
This, I completely agree with. It's not a matter of lowering prices or blaming Chinese knock-offs...it's a matter of offering a product that sets itself apart from the others out there. Let's look at Cobb's Accessport for example...when it first came out, the TurboXS UTEC was king ****...but the majority of the people out there didn't want to do their own tuning, and were content with the TurboXS base maps. Enter the Accessport...comes with basemaps to fill the needs of the lowest common denominator, but yet allows for a professional tuner to tune the car for a custom setup as well. Since it's a reflash device rather than a piggyback, it gave better, consistent resolution and results, and it was priced significantly cheaper too. Few years later and look...the Accessport is the de facto engine management solution to suit the needs of the majority of the Subaru enthusiasts out there.

Nevertheless, Greddy's demise is still a sign of the times we live in today. Consumers want to spend less money, the economy as a whole has less money than it did previously, but at the same time, many people are willing to give up innovation or a higher quality product to spend this less amount of money too. It's up to the companies in this industry to really set themselves apart from their competitors, but once their competitors knock-off these innovations or high quality products (such as Agency Power vs. Kartboy), there's less room to spend for true innovation and high quality. It's a viscious circle, really.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Do-Luck ...... on Verdugo's avatar ?

I know you aren't saying that the "lesser known" names don't make better products ?

Kartboy makes better products than almost any I can think of. The word knock-off is VERY harsh for "smaller" companies. Here's one..... Infinity is a big name in car audio..... I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire. Pioneer is the same garbage, I even have a head unit of Pioneer... only reason I bought it was because of the price (only reason). Kartboy makes THE best shifter and bushings I have seen aftermarket in 15 years.
 
#25 ·
I agree with you on Kartboy, that's why they were knocked off by Agency Power, which uses crappier material and has even been known to break off in some circumstances. Kartboy FTW! But undoubtedly, Kartboy's seen a hit on sales because people are buying the crappy Agency Power knockoffs for cheaper prices :(
 
#27 ·
Yeah, those clowns that work at Agency Power :mad:
 
#28 ·
Never had anything Agency. Was considering their headers.... but now they can bow down... Thank you for opening up THAT can of worms for me on Agency. :rotfl:
What's overpriced ? Kartboy ? Not even close IMHO.

Verdugo, is yur front piece Do-Luck ? I like that.
 
#29 ·
Agency Power told Tom at Kartboy that his short shifters were "overpriced garbage" but then went and knocked off his design and used cheaper materials.

And yep, I have the full Do-Luck kit :)
 
#35 ·
Here is my e-mail to vividracing

To whom it may concern,

I recently read a few threads in a couple different forums and found that Agenct Power is dogging on Kartboy for "garbage products" then AP is then biting on KB's product. Is this a standard practice for "lesser companies" to treat small companies with better products? Your response is appreciated and expected.

Thank you


Will keep you guys updated on their responses.
 
#40 ·
ATTN:

Got a response from Vivid on this and he cc'd in Matt Jobin from Agency. I need the nasioc and other threads to show Vividracing. As I cannot get onto nasioc from work. Be a good bunch of ladies and gents and supply me w/these and I will forward them on. Here is the response from Michael @ Vivid (with whom I have worked w/in the past and was awesome). :

Hey Paul

Well that doesn’t sound like Agency Power at all to be “Dogging” Kart boy for having garbage products. Do you have the links to the Sources to where you see Agency Power personally bashing on them?? If so I would love to see the link. As far as it being a standard practice for lesser companies to act this way, there are companies out there that just there to Bash on others only to make their product seem better which ends up the complete opposite in the end. Agency Power as a company I am 100% sure wouldn’t state something on a forum bashing on another company for the type of product they put out which is what has me astonished that this would even be a Topic on anyone’s forum. I am sure Matt from Agency Power would be more than happy to give you a call to clear this up and if there are any questions in the future Paul you know you can always ask me.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Okay, so it looks like I mis-spoke a little...my memory is a bit hazy...Big Al said Kartboy was garbage, not Vivid or Agency Power...however, that doesn't negate the fact that it's a knock-off.

Link to Big Al's "Don't by that overpriced Kartboy garbage" thread: "Don't buy that overpriced Kartboy garbage." - NASIOC

Agency Power short shifter being a knock-off of Kartboy's: Anyone heard of agency power short throw for STi? - NASIOC

Agency Power Short Shifter - NASIOC

Poor review for agency power sti short throw - NASIOC

This link in particular is Tom describing the story a bit:

NASIOC - View Single Post - Agency power 6mt short shifter....good?
 
#43 ·
Big Al used to be a freelance tuner, but now he's with DynoFlash Engineering. As far as sticking up for Vivid, you do realize they've been banned from here, NASIOC and other places because of their business practices, right?
 
#45 ·
I understand none of you are wrinklesticks, but most of these companies can't be perfect ( trust me, I understand that ) I have had my issues from one company or another. I have been here and there, i'm not a newbie. Thank you for rectifying a bit w/me guys.

Banned from NASIOC, WOW..... that's a bit tough. lol
 
#46 ·
No worries, not every company can be perfect. And technically they weren't banned from NASIOC, but their contract for sponsorship expired and they weren't let back on. The vendor review thread for them on NASIOC keeps growing at 1,441 replies now.
 
#48 ·
It's not just Greddy that's hurting right now. Just about every manufacturer, whether based in Japan, Germany, Australia, or even here in the US is feeling the pinch. It's not like certain products are going out of style either, just the sheer number of products being sold has gone down drastically. After all, with our economy in the state that it is today, the first place people are going to save money is not buying that new turbo or set of coilovers.
 
#49 ·
You guys need to know this:

I used to work for a Japanese company. In order to take advantage of certain tax loopholes, Japanese companies make their profits TWICE.

I'll explain.

Using the model used by many Japanese companies doing business here, this is how it would work:

Trust Japan sells to Greddy USA. Trust makes a profit off of Greddy...big time.

GReddy, an "independent" company (as far as income and tax reporting goes) then goes about selling these products and attempts to make a profit. In short, the product is marked up at least 30%...TWICE.

We dumba$$es in America who all "want what we can't have" then buy the product and keep them in business.

Problem was, the stuff is good quality and there's no reason NOT to buy it.

Since I have and STILL work inside this industry (have done so for 23 years), the simple truth is that people are doing less to their cars these days...and there's simply not enough mod-money floating around to keep every company booming.

In 2001, it was not uncommon to see people spend $20K + plus building a tuner car. Today, most people are doing tires, wheels, exhaust, ECU, a couple of gauges and that's about it.

Magazine advertising sales are in the toilet...two import drag racing series went belly up this year, several companies died (APC, Toucan...good riddens) and others merged. American Racing is making products in CHINA!!

Things are tough...to quote my favorite movie, "it's a giant $hit sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite."
 
#51 ·
I used to work for a Japanese company. In order to take advantage of certain tax loopholes, Japanese companies make their profits TWICE.

I'll explain.

Using the model used by many Japanese companies doing business here, this is how it would work:

Trust Japan sells to Greddy USA. Trust makes a profit off of Greddy...big time.

GReddy, an "independent" company (as far as income and tax reporting goes) then goes about selling these products and attempts to make a profit. In short, the product is marked up at least 30%...TWICE.

We dumba$$es in America who all "want what we can't have" then buy the product and keep them in business.

Problem was, the stuff is good quality and there's no reason NOT to buy it.

Since I have and STILL work inside this industry (have done so for 23 years), the simple truth is that people are doing less to their cars these days...and there's simply not enough mod-money floating around to keep every company booming.

In 2001, it was not uncommon to see people spend $20K + plus building a tuner car. Today, most people are doing tires, wheels, exhaust, ECU, a couple of gauges and that's about it.

Magazine advertising sales are in the toilet...two import drag racing series went belly up this year, several companies died (APC, Toucan...good riddens) and others merged. American Racing is making products in CHINA!!

Things are tough...to quote my favorite movie, "it's a giant $hit sandwich and we're all going to have to take a bite."
JIC operates this same way, and this is also how Cosworth is running things as the new Prodrive distributor for the US. Overall, you're right, and this is the key point here that you made:

the simple truth is that people are doing less to their cars these days...and there's simply not enough mod-money floating around to keep every company booming.
That is the bottom line. Yeah, I can get angry about knock-offs, businesses underselling products below MAP, etc...but the simply fact that people aren't buying anywhere as much as they used to overall is really the biggest problem facing the industry right now, and companies like Greddy who depend on this (and not coming up with anything truly innovative) are the ones hurting the most.
 
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