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This is a discussion on New with lots to learn within the New Member Hangout forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by mcgrewcasey What stage 1 tune exactly entail? Stock tune is lean - pay attention to the rpm ...

  1. #31
    Registered User jsBLwrx's Avatar
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    Re: New with lots to learn

    Quote Originally Posted by mcgrewcasey View Post
    What stage 1 tune exactly entail?
    Stock tune is lean - pay attention to the rpm range between 3000 to 4000 rpm while accelerating briskly. The stumble or the roughness you feel is the result of lean state of tune

    Adding any highflow intake to the already lean state of the stock tune would likely cause your engine to knok/ping/detonate etc

    Probably the easiest Stage1 tune is purchasing a Cobb AP/tuner and flashing the ecu with an off-the-shelf stage1 tune.

    If you want an intake, Cobb offers tunes for either their own branded SF intake (get the box/enclosure) and the aem cai

    I recommend visiting a reputable shop if you are not comfortable following the manual exactly or never flashed any ecus before. Just observe and you will realize it's pretty simple to tune using tbe AP and the OTS tune

    Also, the Cobb AP/tuner can be used to reflash either back to stock or upgrading to stage2 (catted down pipe) as needed or until you are ready to run a custom tune later on

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  3. #32
    zax
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsBLwrx View Post
    Stock tune is lean - pay attention to the rpm range between 3000 to 4000 rpm while accelerating briskly. The stumble or the roughness you feel is the result of lean state of tune
    Do you have a Wideband O2 sensor installed to support this theory? If so, I'd like to see the graphs of (Wideband O2 reading)/(Target AFR) vs. Mass airflow that you have plotted to derive this conclusion. If these haven't been done, I do believe you are operating via repeated internet judgement [rumor] which typically results from exaggerated claims.

    EDIT:
    Here is a graph for which I'm looking



    This is an absolute horrid MAFv scaling job, showing rich conditions below 25 g/s mass airflow and lean conditions above 25 g/s mass airflow. FYR, this is with my [former] Fujita F5 CAI, which clearly does not mimic the stock MAFv scaling.
    Last edited by zax; 01-29-2013 at 07:49 PM.
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  4. #33
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    FYR here is the primary OL fueling table for the 2011 WRX. The 2013 should be similar:



    Now again, it's difficult to actually judge the fuel delivery at high load since it's unlikely the car will ever see CL fueling in those load cells, but you can see at peak torque the ECU is attempting to deliver a 10:1 AFR which is quite rich. Above 1.6 load, you're already well into the 11s in the 3000-4000 RPM range. This is not quite what I would call "lean." If anyone with a Wideband O2 sensor would care to step forward and show the world what the ACTUAL fuel delivery looks like at these load ranges, that would be excellent. But I will not buy into the lean theory with no credible evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    You should, yes. I'm not impressed with Subaru's stock MAFv calibration; adding an intake and not accounting for the new MAF scaling only compounds the problem.

    Beamed at your face at approx. 186,000 miles per second via DROID BIONIC
    Sorry for being so new but when you say "tune" is that something like the COBB tuner? It looks like that has the maps for stage 1 and stage 2 and so forth. I feel retarded going from non turbo vehicles that I feel pretty comfortable with to this beast that I don't want to have anything go wrong with.

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    Registered User 11blackwrx's Avatar
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    a tune can be through a cobb ap or through opensource
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    Registered User bbrock171's Avatar
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    Yeah, you can get a Cobb accessport, which is expensive initially but allows for switching ECU tunes without having to have a laptop in your car, or you can buy a $100 tactrix cable and get an open source tune elsewhere using a laptop. There are several companies that sell off the shelf tunes, or you can go to someone who will do a dyno tune or "etune" (basically over email). TorquedPerformance is where I got mine. Eric does good work and his maps are noticeably more aggressive than any OTS tune you will find while still running safe and knock free.

    So to recap, stage 1 simply means reflashing the ECU with a more aggressive tune than stock, and requires no physical mods to the car.
    Bottom line, if you don't mind taking your time and learning a thing or two about tuning, you can get it done on the cheap.
    Last edited by bbrock171; 01-30-2013 at 04:03 AM. Reason: Because I'm dumb

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    Quote Originally Posted by 11blackwrx View Post
    a tune can be through a cobb ap or through opensource
    Or a piggyback or standalone EMS system (i.e. UTEC, VIPEC, HYDRA, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock171 View Post
    Eric does good work and his maps are noticeably more aggressive than any OTS tune you will find while still running safe and knock free
    Can be, but not necessarily. It's all about how the car reacts to the OTS tune. Many cars run OTS tunes with no issues, but some have significant issues, usually due to the presence of some other mechanical issue in the system. Eric's OTS tunes have the benefit of e-tuning, which adds a safety margin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Can be, but not necessarily.
    Maybe I wasn't clear...I meant Eric's tunes are more aggressive while still being safe and knock-free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock171 View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear...I meant Eric's tunes are more aggressive while still being safe and knock-free.
    I'm not sure I agree with you. His base map isn't that aggressive to my eyes.
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    [QUOTE=zax;2980936]Do you have a Wideband O2 sensor installed to support this theory? If so, I'd like to see the graphs of (Wideband O2 reading)/(Target AFR) vs. Mass airflow that you have plotted to derive this conclusion. If these haven't been done, I do believe you are operating via repeated internet judgement [rumor] which typically results from exaggerated claims.


    zax,

    no wb 02 here and my opinion only.
    no graphs to illustrate my opinion.

    More importantly your comment about "operating via repeated internet judgement"
    - no: remember, what you've posted above and what is quoted below, your opinion with "credible" source of information are just that: another part of "internet judgement"

    But some are more valuable than others and it is up to individual members to draw a conclusion, hopefully, based on other means of verifying the information.
    i do appreciate knowledgeable members posting on this site, and other members with varying degrees of knowledge and experience, including yours


    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    FYR here is the primary OL fueling table for the 2011 WRX. The 2013 should be similar:



    Now again, it's difficult to actually judge the fuel delivery at high load since it's unlikely the car will ever see CL fueling in those load cells, but you can see at peak torque the ECU is attempting to deliver a 10:1 AFR which is quite rich. Above 1.6 load, you're already well into the 11s in the 3000-4000 RPM range. This is not quite what I would call "lean." If anyone with a Wideband O2 sensor would care to step forward and show the world what the ACTUAL fuel delivery looks like at these load ranges, that would be excellent. But I will not buy into the lean theory with no credible evidence.
    "high load" - do you think nailing the gas at 2/3 to 3/4 throttle, at 3k rpm is really unrealistic, high load range of operation for these cars? Your mention of 11:1 in 3k-4k rpm range only amplifies the 1/3 of the load range on the table that you posted above - Rest of the afr from .27 to 1.98 engine load g/rev range in 3k - 4k rpm, the afr appears to be "lean"

    As for the richness, that makes sense that the stock tuning would attempt to enrich the mixture as boost builds and the rpm climbs, which can be an insurance IMHO against a sudden "boom" and a dead car

    How does this table manifest itself in real world driving - well if the .27 g/rev represents the "tip-in", then the stumbling could be due to the fact the afr is too lean, which gradually enriches as, i'm assuming, the "boost" building and the ecu is compensating for the increased airflow vs the load

    Zax, point being, 1. i appreciate the input 2. fortunately, i have other sources of information beyond the "internet" to verify the data 3. i'm an enthusiast and don't claim to be an expert 4. sorry for not bothering to site sources of info, but i digest what i read in forums, only two forums, and verify the claims/rumors through other sources

    Ultimately, you agree the stock tune needs improvement right? and that OP should be able to get a tune to clean up the slop?

    Have a great day surfing the web

    Cheers

  12. #41
    zax
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    I appreciate that you understand more than the average driver. At least in my experience, tuning tip-in enrichment can improve the "stumble" on throttle-on. However, removing the CL:OL delay has an even more profound effect. FYR, the tip-in issues have less to do with a lean tune than the MAF sensor lag, which causes a slightly lean condition. Tip-in enrichment can improve this, but it's not in the fueling: it's a mechanical issue between the differential in the throttle opening angle and the MAF sensor reading.

    My point is making blanket statements such as "Stock tune is lean" is often processed and repeated by enthusiasts who understand much less than you might. Qualifying this by saying "The stock tune tends to run lean for a short period of time during tip-in from MAF lag" is more direct, and those who don't understand the statement are less likely to repeat it lending to a greater control over the actual information (i.e. game of telephone).

    FYR, I don't feel that holding 14.7 stoich at 1.5 load in OL is necessarily lean. Manufacturers will try to hold stoich longest to improve emissions and fuel economy. Again, this is typical among OEM tunes and doesn't really lend to the point that the 2011 runs any "leaner" than previous models and certainly not dangerously lean.

    I will admit that when I first read your post, I understood your statement as "the 2011 WRX runs lean" which means that the AFRs are exceeding stoich. However, now that I realize you meant the fueling can be improved, I will board that train alongside you. We just have to be careful when spreading information, that we qualify our statements clearly.
    Last edited by zax; 01-30-2013 at 07:07 AM. Reason: spelling.
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  13. #42
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    The CL/OL delay causes the car to stay in CL longer than it should under boost. If you look at stock cars dyno plots, you'll see the knock in the graphs. This is why the statement that the car on the stock tune is "too lean" is thrown around. The Primary OL Fueling table shown earlier isn't referenced until the delay is up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrock171 View Post
    Welcome.


    Here are some lessons I learned with my '11 WRX trying to navigate the abundant information, misinformation and outdated threads of the interwebs...

    Pointers:
    - You don't "need" an aftermarket uppipe.
    - Your transmission isn't made of glass, but be nice to it.
    - Don't get a blow off valve (BOV) unless you want your car to run like doodoo.
    - Don't buy an exhaust until you've heard it in person.
    - Modding can't "void" your warranty...but it can cause it to not be honored if your mod is deemed to be related to an issue. Every dealer is different.
    - Be very judicious with suspension mod decisions if you care at all about ride comfort.
    - "Stage 2" consists of a downpipe and a tune, and should be your first step in performance mods should you decide to go down that road.
    - If you plan to make any performance mods, read this: Public Service Announcement. "I want 400whp!" Are you sure?
    - An Accessport is easy and convenient for tuning your car, but there are cheaper methods so do your research and decide what's best for you.
    - Always use new gaskets when changing anything.
    - There are several mods that don't require a retune, but to get the power out of it and avoid potential issues, a retune is always best.
    - You don't need an intake, but it does sound cool. <--- Requires tune.
    - Tune ≠ tune-up.
    - A kartboy shifter and some good shifter bushings is a great mod for the money.
    - Read the stickies.
    - Enjoy the new ride!

    I could go on, but that should get you started.

    Congrats on the new car and welcome.
    Since joining the site (picked up my 2013 August of 2012) this is pretty much what I've come to realize. Thanks for putting it all there in one place!
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  15. #44
    Registered User bbrock171's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with you. His base map isn't that aggressive to my eyes.
    Well I've only run a handful of tunes on only two cars, so that's a small test set, but my butt dyno tells me Eric's tunes are BA. My STI is etuned by him, and it literally forces me to smile when I'm going WOT. With the Cobb map, I was like "Fun, but meh..." On my WRX both the Stage 1 and Stage 2 were noticeably more aggressive than Cobb.

  16. #45
    Registered User jsBLwrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    I appreciate that you understand more than the average driver. At least in my experience, tuning tip-in enrichment can improve the "stumble" on throttle-on. However, removing the CL:OL delay has an even more profound effect. FYR, the tip-in issues have less to do with a lean tune than the MAF sensor lag, which causes a slightly lean condition. Tip-in enrichment can improve this, but it's not in the fueling: it's a mechanical issue between the differential in the throttle opening angle and the MAF sensor reading.

    My point is making blanket statements such as "Stock tune is lean" is often processed and repeated by enthusiasts who understand much less than you might. Qualifying this by saying "The stock tune tends to run lean for a short period of time during tip-in from MAF lag" is more direct, and those who don't understand the statement are less likely to repeat it lending to a greater control over the actual information (i.e. game of telephone).

    FYR, I don't feel that holding 14.7 stoich at 1.5 load in OL is necessarily lean. Manufacturers will try to hold stoich longest to improve emissions and fuel economy. Again, this is typical among OEM tunes and doesn't really lend to the point that the 2011 runs any "leaner" than previous models and certainly not dangerously lean.

    I will admit that when I first read your post, I understood your statement as "the 2011 WRX runs lean" which means that the AFRs are exceeding stoich. However, now that I realize you meant the fueling can be improved, I will board that train alongside you. We just have to be careful when spreading information, that we qualify our statements clearly.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    The CL/OL delay causes the car to stay in CL longer than it should under boost. If you look at stock cars dyno plots, you'll see the knock in the graphs. This is why the statement that the car on the stock tune is "too lean" is thrown around. The Primary OL Fueling table shown earlier isn't referenced until the delay is up.

    Thanks guys - i appreciate your constructive feedback and inputs

    Cheers

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