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This is a discussion on Can't seem to wheelspin! within the New Member Hangout forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by wearywanderer You know a better way to shout out "Look at me!!" while seated in your car? ...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wearywanderer View Post
    You know a better way to shout out "Look at me!!" while seated in your car?
    Get some spinners.

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  3. #32
    Registered User JovicA's Avatar
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    If you want to spin the tires get a muscle car. But if you want a good car that will run good and not die unless you act dumb then keep your car and run it nice. Attention is NOT a good thing.
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by poly_poly-man View Post
    yeah - if you can't spin the tires in a fwd car, you must have a 50hp engine. rwd - about 200-300, and awd about 700 (using average tires). People aren't used to awd, I guess..
    how, in the name of physics, are you going to claim that you require more power to break lose the wheels on a RWD than FWD?? More weight is placed on FWD driving wheels... and more weight = more static friction given similar tire width and compound.

    Also, I can break the tires lose in a stock WRX, so how are you getting 700 hp?? Your claims are absolutely not rooted in fact.
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  5. #34
    Registered User armindk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    how, in the name of physics, are you going to claim that you require more power to break lose the wheels on a RWD than FWD?? More weight is placed on FWD driving wheels... and more weight = more static friction given similar tire width and compound.

    Also, I can break the tires lose in a stock WRX, so how are you getting 700 hp?? Your claims are absolutely not rooted in fact.
    I think he was just saying it as a joke. Nevertheless any car under acceleration squats, so on a FWD some if not most of the weight goes to the back therefore making the front tires easier to spin. That's why you don't see that many FWD drag cars with over 1000HP! On a RWD the same thing happens but since the weight is transferred on to the top of the drive wheels, more traction is gained therefore you need more power to spin the wheels. I don't know about the 50 hp requirement to break traction in a FWD and 200-300 HP requirement to break traction in a RWD and 700 HP for an AWD, but it is harder to break loose in a RWD than a FWD.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by armindk View Post
    I think he was just saying it as a joke. Nevertheless any car under acceleration squats, so on a FWD some if not most of the weight goes to the back therefore making the front tires easier to spin. That's why you don't see that many FWD drag cars with over 1000HP! On a RWD the same thing happens but since the weight is transferred on to the top of the drive wheels, more traction is gained therefore you need more power to spin the wheels. I don't know about the 50 hp requirement to break traction in a FWD and 200-300 HP requirement to break traction in a RWD and 700 HP for an AWD, but it is harder to break loose in a RWD than a FWD.
    RWD cars do "squat" on their drive wheels. However, we are talking about breaking the tires loose from a standstill. This is overcoming static friction, so the car does not "squat" until a good deal of forward acceleration is applied. During hard acceleration, I agree that a RWD car will hold more grip than an equivalent FWD car. However, from a standstill, the opposite is true. This is the very reason a FWD car has considerably better traction in snow than equivalent RWD cars.
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  7. #36
    Registered User armindk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    RWD cars do "squat" on their drive wheels. However, we are talking about breaking the tires loose from a standstill. This is overcoming static friction, so the car does not "squat" until a good deal of forward acceleration is applied. During hard acceleration, I agree that a RWD car will hold more grip than an equivalent FWD car. However, from a standstill, the opposite is true. This is the very reason a FWD car has considerably better traction in snow than equivalent RWD cars.

    We are talking about spinning wheels aren't we? You can spin your wheels while accelerating or stationary. Nevertheless if you put the parking brakes on in a FWD car and put the car in 1st or D, and give the car a little bit of gas, you will notice the car still squats! I wouldn't try this on a RWD because the brakes are on the driving wheels. Basically squatting happens as soon as torque is transferred to the wheels.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by armindk View Post
    We are talking about spinning wheels aren't we? You can spin your wheels while accelerating or stationary. Nevertheless if you put the parking brakes on in a FWD car and put the car in 1st or D, and give the car a little bit of gas, you will notice the car still squats! I wouldn't try this on a RWD because the brakes are on the driving wheels. Basically squatting happens as soon as torque is transferred to the wheels.
    Yes, true... you're right about that. I suppose it really depends on the tires. In this case we have to consider how much torque is going to be "lifting" the front of the car off the ground (rear wheels acting as a fulcrum point). Initially, I thought that this force was minimal compared to the force of the motor weighing down on the front axle, but after careful thought, I realized that thought may be fallible. With proper tires, the torque should be large enough to compress the rear fulcrum point and effectively nullify the effect of having hundreds of pounds extra weight on the front axle. This "squatting" effect is different from the linear acceleration of which I was thinking (like a drag car accelerating forward). Instead, this "squatting" is due to the conservation of rotational inertia and torque transfer, as you have stated.

    This may be a fun kinematic system to model. My snow scenario holds true because the amount of torque imparted on the rear wheels (fulcrum point) from the drive wheels on a FWD vehicle is much smaller than in ideal conditions. There seems to be a point when increasing the traction makes it more difficult for a RWD car to break the wheels loose than a FWD vehicle.

    So, in summary:
    Low traction conditions -- FWD has more traction
    High traction conditions -- RWD has more traction

    I'm a bit disappointed that I was unable to see this earlier. Though, I thank you for pointing this out!

    EDIT:
    I realized that in writing the above book, I was thinking that the tires were rotating in the wrong direction. If the vehicle is moving forward, conservation of torque with rotating tires take weight off the rear tires, not add. Therefore, if the RWD car is stationary and spinning the tires, the car will "squat" in the front, not rear. So the FWD car has more traction in all conditions, and the RWD car has the traction reduction effect detailed above.
    Last edited by zax; 10-08-2010 at 06:58 AM.
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  9. #38
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    I've been known to accidentally wheel out of parking lots in my unloaded Ranger. It makes me involuntarily scream out the window like a cowboy. Secksy.
    vids or it didn't happen
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  11. #40
    Registered User armindk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Yes, true... you're right about that. I suppose it really depends on the tires. In this case we have to consider how much torque is going to be "lifting" the front of the car off the ground (rear wheels acting as a fulcrum point). Initially, I thought that this force was minimal compared to the force of the motor weighing down on the front axle, but after careful thought, I realized that thought may be fallible. With proper tires, the torque should be large enough to compress the rear fulcrum point and effectively nullify the effect of having hundreds of pounds extra weight on the front axle. This "squatting" effect is different from the linear acceleration of which I was thinking (like a drag car accelerating forward). Instead, this "squatting" is due to the conservation of rotational inertia and torque transfer, as you have stated.

    This may be a fun kinematic system to model. My snow scenario holds true because the amount of torque imparted on the rear wheels (fulcrum point) from the drive wheels on a FWD vehicle is much smaller than in ideal conditions. There seems to be a point when increasing the traction makes it more difficult for a RWD car to break the wheels loose than a FWD vehicle.

    So, in summary:
    Low traction conditions -- FWD has more traction
    High traction conditions -- RWD has more traction

    I'm a bit disappointed that I was unable to see this earlier. Though, I thank you for pointing this out!

    EDIT:
    I realized that in writing the above book, I was thinking that the tires were rotating in the wrong direction. If the vehicle is moving forward, conservation of torque with rotating tires take weight off the rear tires, not add. Therefore, if the RWD car is stationary and spinning the tires, the car will "squat" in the front, not rear. So the FWD car has more traction in all conditions, and the RWD car has the traction reduction effect detailed above.

    Yes actually that is true on a RWD the front does squat a little.
    On snow however since there isn't a lot of rotational force to cause lift either in the front or the back because not a lot of power is required to spin wheels on ice, A FWD is better in that case because of the weight of the engine, trans, etc.

  12. #41
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    I like playing on dirt roads getting mine to act like Ken Blocks in the Gymkhana videos
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  13. #42
    Registered User wearywanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STTI View Post
    I like playing on dirt roads getting mine to act like Ken Blocks in the Gymkhana videos
    That guy is driving GOD!

  14. #43
    zax
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    Quote Originally Posted by wearywanderer View Post
    That guy is driving GOD!
    No. You are absolutely wrong. He is a decent driver, but nothing like classic rally drivers (i.e. Group B rally). He's a showboat and it simply doesn't go much deeper than that.

    Now if you insisted Stig Blomqvist or Walter Rohrl are driving gods, I'd be inclined to agree. Put quite simply, Block is just not Scandinavian enough to be any good at driving a vehicle.
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  15. #44
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    Answer is simple to the original question. Sell WRX. Buy STI. Notice DCCD button, engage. Lock all differentials. All wheels spin rather easily
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  16. #45
    Registered User 1speed...FAST!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    No. You are absolutely wrong. He is a decent driver, but nothing like classic rally drivers (i.e. Group B rally). He's a showboat and it simply doesn't go much deeper than that.

    Now if you insisted Stig Blomqvist or Walter Rohrl are driving gods, I'd be inclined to agree. Put quite simply, Block is just not Scandinavian enough to be any good at driving a vehicle.
    +1

    Yes give him credit for his abilities but take

    this....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQmg...eature=related

    vs.

    this...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TshFWSsrn8
    Last edited by 1speed...FAST!; 10-08-2010 at 11:38 AM.
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