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This is a discussion on snow driving questions.. within the New Member Hangout forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by SaskatoonSubaru Wow that really isn't true. Well anti-lock brakes won't stop you like you were driving on ...

  1. #16
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaskatoonSubaru View Post
    Wow that really isn't true. Well anti-lock brakes won't stop you like you were driving on summer roads. It will stop you quicker then no ABS.
    The greatest braking is the point right BEFORE the ABS kicks in... ABS is great for those "slam on your brakes" type situations, but it doesn't afford the best braking possible. Next time you're in icy weather, try this out... Slam on the brakes and see how far you go from 40-0.... then come back around and do the same thing and gently push the brakes to the point where ABS is about to kick in, but doesn't. Guaranteed your braking distance is better without ABS.

    ABS literally brakes until you skid, and then lets off and brakes until you skid again... 15x's per second.
    Last edited by Sinister; 12-10-2009 at 06:12 PM.
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  3. #17
    Admiral Ackbar mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black09wrx View Post
    Let me second the comment about the ABS not helping much in the snow, especially with the stock summer tires on (I have Blizzak LM-60's on order as I know how important they are when driving in a Chicago winter).

    Anyway, my new '09 wrx is in the body shop as I write this--just dropped it off this morning.

    I was approaching an intersection with a red light a couple days ago, and it was snowing here in Chicago pretty good. The road was snowy/icy and had not yet been salted.

    I was approaching the light with one parked car (Mitsubishi SUV) at the light. I wasn't going very fast at all. When I began to brake, everything was going fine. I didn't mash the brakes, just applied light pressure.

    So as I get about 2 car lengths from the SUV in front of me the car hits a bump--not sure if it is the combination of ABS plus brake assist, but my brake pedal fell completely to the floor! This was accompanied by some vibration, which I'm used to with ABS. However, the pedal falling to the floor was new to me, and didn't exactly inspire stopping confidence.

    As soon as the pedal dropped, I could feel my rate of deceleration slowing (meaning I wasn't stopping as fast). The car almost seemed to rev as this was happening. Realizing I was now almost guaranteed to slide into the SUV anyway, and with nowhere to go (too high a curb to get around the SUV) I gently start to pull the ebrake (unsure of whether I had lost brakes with the pedal at the floor).

    The end result was a rear-end collision at about 5 MPH. Unfortunately, the SUV had a hitch, so that was the end of my front bumper and sports grille. It also bent a support in the chassis just enough to bow out my driver's side front fender--just a little.

    I promptly called in sick to work, popped in Queen's "I'm In Love With My Car", on loop, and sobbed all the way home.

    Let's hope I recognize her when I get her back from the body shop...

    -Rick

    P.S. Now driving a 2010 Chevrolet Cobalt (rental). The first few times taking off from a stop I was surprised at the fwd wheel spin, something I *never* have in the wrx, even with the stock high-performance summer tires (which again I had planned to replace with Blizzak LM-60's, ordered a while back, due to arrive any day now--unfortunately about 1 week too late :-(
    WRX have historic problems with the ABS that included a TSB for what was an often noted issue with a dramatic pause before breaking ensued after the ASB kicked in leading to wrecks as this 2009 has. Never heard of the brake peddle going to the floor - it sounds like a mechanical issue that you should make them deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    The greatest braking is the point right BEFORE the ABS kicks in... ABS is great for those "slam on your brakes" type situations, but it doesn't afford the best braking possible. Next time you're in icy weather, try this out... Slam on the brakes and see how far you go from 40-0.... then come back around and do the same thing and gently push the brakes to the point where ABS is about to kick in, but doesn't. Guaranteed your braking distance is better without ABS.

    ABS literally brakes until you skid, and then lets off and brakes until you skid again... 15x's per second.
    A good driver will stop faster without ABS in many conditions. Without ABS you can also develop a snow wedge that will significantly decrease your distance. ABS is for if you can't maintain control of direction.
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  4. #18
    Registered User SaskatoonSubaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    The greatest braking is the point right BEFORE the ABS kicks in... ABS is great for those "slam on your brakes" type situations, but it doesn't afford the best braking possible. Next time you're in icy weather, try this out... Slam on the brakes and see how far you go from 40-0.... then come back around and do the same thing and gently push the brakes to the point where ABS is about to kick in, but doesn't. Guaranteed your braking distance is better without ABS.

    ABS literally brakes until you skid, and then lets off and brakes until you skid again... 15x's per second.
    Well ya anytime you can brake with out your wheel's wanting to lock up will always give you better braking. But in a cause were your wheels do lock up, ABS will stop you before, Non-ABS.

  5. #19
    Registered User Lengthwise32's Avatar
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    I agree.

    I think people have a misconception that ABS has the ability to stop quickly on ice as if it were a dry summer road.

    People hit the breaks, and it takes forever to stop on ice and then they say ABS sucks.... Even technology can't make ice not slippery...

    That and some people are still running summer performance tires and no amount of ABS is going to make up for the completely wrong tire. Winter tires will /greatly/ improve traction performance and allows ABS to better do it's job.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaskatoonSubaru View Post
    Wow that really isn't true. Well anti-lock brakes won't stop you like you were driving on summer roads. It will stop you quicker then no ABS.
    2009 WRX - South Denver, CO

  6. #20
    Registered User ragz-REX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lengthwise32 View Post
    Even technology can't make ice not slippery...
    can i use this, cuz its pretty damn funny..

    anyway, thanks everyone for your replys to my question.. i guess my next question is, since we don't get all that much snow here in philly, but i enjoy going to the mountains where they do, is it necessary to take the snow tires off if i know there is going to be a month or so where my REX doesn't see any snow, or can i leave them on for my DD without ruining them? if they were more soft than the stock tires i would expect to ruin them in a short amount of time thru daily use which also means they would only be good for one season.. do you normally get a few seasons of driving out of a set of snow tires?

    sorry if the questions are dumb, but ive never had to consider any of these things because i never took my 1997 saturn on any long snow trips..

    thanks for the help
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  7. #21
    Registered User Lengthwise32's Avatar
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    I have studless winter tires and put them on at the first snow in late November and keep them on until early spring.

    They're not just for snow, but they're made of a rubber compound made for temperatures below 45 degrees which is all winter here. It's 12 degrees right now in Denver. So even when it's dry out it's still cold as heck and they don't stiffen up like regular tires.

    Mine should last about 5-6 seasons is my guess, but because they are softer, and not made for performance don't go racing around corners on them or you will wear them out quickly and tires aren't cheap.

    Have them put on a set of cheap rims for easy swaps.
    Last edited by Lengthwise32; 12-11-2009 at 05:24 AM.
    2009 WRX - South Denver, CO

  8. #22
    Registered User Poohbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycologist View Post
    WRX have historic problems with the ABS that included a TSB for what was an often noted issue with a dramatic pause before breaking ensued after the ASB kicked in leading to wrecks as this 2009 has. Never heard of the brake peddle going to the floor - it sounds like a mechanical issue that you should make them deal with.



    A good driver will stop faster without ABS in many conditions. Without ABS you can also develop a snow wedge that will significantly decrease your distance. ABS is for if you can't maintain control of direction.
    Absolutely true... People panic and slam on the brakes locking up the wheels. Then you lose control and slide right into the back of whatever your avoiding. With abs people can maintain control of the vehicle avoiding locking up the tires.

    X2 on best braking potential right before ABS kicks in. ABS kicks in only when the tires or tire begin to lock up and skid. Meaning you have past the potential of your tires to grab the road and stop the car. The best braking potential is right before this happens.

    ABS is a great thing for people who panic and dont understand the breaking system very well. In fact when ABS started to become standard on newer vehicles R/O's began to notice more collisions where the vehicle swerved around the obstical only to hit a tree or pole or something off the road. This meant that the ABS was working to give the driver control of the vehicle instead of going into a skid.

    Newer jeeps were having the same issue with ABS and pedals going to the floor. In fact a similar situation happened to my fiancées father in his 06 Cherokee. Luckily it didn't end with a collision. The dealer could never isolate the issue and it was common with many other jeep and chrysler auto's (never on a dodge though).
    Your vehicle is an extension of your skill as a driver, not a substitute for it.

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  9. #23
    Admiral Ackbar mycologist's Avatar
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    In even marginally deep snow you will stop faster if you lock up the tires. It is not at the limit of traction like dry or wet smooth surfaces. You release the brakes a little to change direction if necessary, then go back to snow plowing with a locked wheel.
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  10. #24
    Registered User JoeMomma's Avatar
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    abs in the snow FTL.

    yeah what he said^^brake then let go of brakes then turn wheel to oppoisite direction of what ever you think you may or may not crash into, then brake again.

    the first time i messed around in the snow i came literally inches from hitting a curb cause i thought this car was pretty much invincible in the snow, lemme see if i can find the picture
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  11. #25
    Registered User PurpleMongoose's Avatar
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    I just figure it this way...

    Winter tires ~ $500.

    Most deductibles ~ $500.

    Same cost? No.

    Tires will last 3 winters or so. Driven hard.

    Deductible will last for one incident, which may be as little as 5 seconds, and may be repeatable.
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  12. #26
    Registered User Lengthwise32's Avatar
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    I agree completely, but to add more.

    Most deductibles are $500, mine is $1000, but you also have to figure insurance/time/money/frustration/medical/lost work when you get in an accident and it adds up to way more than the cost of a set of winter tires.

    Not only that, the WRX is amazing in the winter with winter tires, it really brings out the best! You're really missing out w/o them.
    -Chris


    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMongoose View Post
    I just figure it this way...

    Winter tires ~ $500.

    Most deductibles ~ $500.

    Same cost? No.

    Tires will last 3 winters or so. Driven hard.

    Deductible will last for one incident, which may be as little as 5 seconds, and may be repeatable.
    2009 WRX - South Denver, CO

  13. #27
    Registered User JoeMomma's Avatar
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    oh and p.s throttle control is also key when driving in the snow.
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  14. #28
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMomma View Post
    oh and p.s throttle control is also key when driving in the snow.
    I'm WOT whenever driving in the snow... it's either Gas or Break for me... no in between...







    /sarcasm
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  15. #29
    Registered User JoeMomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    I'm WOT whenever driving in the snow... it's either Gas or Break for me... no in between...







    /sarcasm

    haha for a minute i thought you were serious and was like then i caught on
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  16. #30
    Registered User subysnak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB1987 View Post
    In winter I recommend to rely less on the brakes and engine brake more so.
    truth.
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