The Official 2015 WRX & STi Thread - Page 52
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This is a discussion on The Official 2015 WRX & STi Thread within the New Cars/Prototypes Forums forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by Soobvirgin I think this would have been a more sporty offering; 2dr and smaller gaps in the ...

  1. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soobvirgin View Post
    I think this would have been a more sporty offering; 2dr and smaller gaps in the wheel arches. Then all it would need is wheels that don't look like cheap aftermarket and a more grown-up rear wing.

    Cool SRT4.

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  3. #767
    Registered User Soobvirgin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Cool SRT4.

    Haha, hey it's an improvement. I never said it suddenly became a good looking car!

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    Drive Hard, Stay Driven..

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    Love love love the 2 door look

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage-wrx View Post
    I'll take the top one.

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    EJ is for turbucharging, FA/FB are not.

    Its typical people complaining about the EJ257 being in the 2015 STI with having no knowledge of what is important in a motor. Boy howdy I am sure sick of people complaining about the "weak" ringlands. As far as the "superior" advancements of the FA/FB series, I see only advancements for fuel economy. Those of you complaining about the old crappy drivetrain must be complaining only about ringland failures. Jeebus, how many of you realize that ringland failure is due to knock events at peak TQ? How many Subaru engines can be pushed to over 400 WTQ on the stock turbo? None, except the EJ257. Face it, any motor unless running E85 or direct injection (read, 4B11T, Turbo FA in the 2015 WRX) will have a weak point unless it is a very expensive car. Even the vaulted 4G63 (EVO owners were up in arms when that engine was replaced by the 4B11T) with its forged pistons had a weak point past 400WTQ. Would you rather crack a land or bend/break a rod. The EJ257 has all the modern engine advancements a good turbocharged engine needs. You can blame emissions requirements for the hypereutectic pistons. Yes, the 2.0L motors (even the EJ205) tend to crack ringlands much less. Leave the engine stock on either and they run great for a long long time. The EJ25T engine won awards in 2006 and 2009. Long in the tooth? Yeah right. Its not like the EJ series was not upgraded over and over again since the 80's. So what if it is the same "series". Subaru could have labeled the FA/FB an EJ as well. Its simply marketing. The major difference in the FA/FB is that they are designed as fuel efficient NA motors. The 2015 WRX is a serious downgrade with the turbo FA. You have a smaller piston that is stroked with an upped compression ratio. Two long timing chains are a bad idea. It was done to increase the intake and exhaust valve angles which flow air more smoothly. The cam sprockets are smaller allowing the cams to sit further apart in the heads. This is important in NA engines, but barley makes a different in a turbo engine. All of this was done to better support direct injection. Yes, they turbocharged the FA. The FA makes more NA horsepower than the EJ because of direct injection folks. A better comparison to the EJ motor is the NA non direct injected FB series motor. 170HP. So you want a turbo direct injected 2.0L? Buy a WRX with the "new" 6 speed. The new 6 speed is as weak as the old 5 speed. Ask Cobb. Have fun increasing the HP on your bicycle chain driven cams. A belt stretches pretty uniformly. A chain stretches in the links and throws your timing off over time. All those guides and whatnot on the chain won't help accuracy of ignition timing. I guess when you make 500 WTQ on your direct injected, stroked 2.0L and your tuner cannot figure out why the timing is off and it keeps knocking tht it might be a stretched timing chain... Timing chains suck and I have had plenty of them on high TQ, high HP small block chevy motors.

    For a fuel injected motor, especially a high horsepower turbocharged motor, a timing belt is preferred for accurate cam timing. Just ask Summit:

    Timing Belt vs. Timing Chain vs. Timing Gear - Summit Racing Quick Flicks - YouTube

    FA/FB info:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...baru_FA_engine

    Someone else mentioned drivetrain and the EVO with its active TQ vectoring crap was also vaulted on a WRX forum. What gives? Do any of you do research? If you did you would know the following:

    • Starting in MY2006, the STI added yaw sensors and active braking although not advertised. 2006-2007 STIs tend to oversteer, not understeer due to active braking.
    • An EVO is 95-100% FWD and made for novices going fast, you actually understeer into the corner, then the AWD system sends power to the rear wheels and the computer controlled rear diff distributes power to turn the car for you.
    • The DCCD STI transmission is one of the strongest and largest AWD transmissions made. They don't break unless you leave it in lock all the time.
    • Did you miss that the 2015 STI has a computer controlled clutch type rear diff? Have some active TQ vectoring to the wheels that really matters when going fast around corners. Thank you Subaru.
    • EVOs break their center diffs all the time.
    • Who uses the DCCD settings? Mine is always on auto as it should be. The important thing is the fast response from the center diff.
    • Did I mention the STI had yaw sensors added in 2006? The USDM EVOs do not have them.


    My wife's 06 STI has 90K on a Crawford S3L shortblock. The stock turbo is going out, but that is it.
    My 07 STI has 45K on the block with ceramic topped CP dropin pistons after I cracked a land at 10K miles.

    With these power figures, what other car without upgrading internals or completely changing the fuel system would be in the 100K+ miles club or have nearly 50K on a dropin piston motor. I'll take our large fat power bands over a high revving 2.0L any day. Yes, I have had an S2000 and I had one of the first 2002 WRXs that hit the shores in 2001. Do your research people. The FA/FB motors (forget about turboing the FB 2,5L - it has assymetrical rods) were made to increase NA fuel economy. They were not designed with a turbo in mind. FHI does hold several patents on an electric turbocharger. Those are the future. Do some research folks.

    Gabe

    2007 STI - Custom 60 trim TQ monster turbo (E85) - 613 WTQ, 572 WHP fat powerband
    2006 STI - Stock turbo (93 octane) - 405 WTQ, 342 WHP fatter powerband
    Last edited by gabedude; 01-17-2014 at 04:57 PM.
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    Gabe I think people are generalizing what you're talking about with the newer 3rd gens because I have to say that the third gen quality sucks.
    I've never owned an 06 or 07 but I'll assume they're much better quality then my car simply because I haven't heard anything bad with them. 3rd gens have broken firewall welds, spun bearings, and the 12 and 13 models have a weird evap problem.
    But again there provably was some bad thing gs on the old ones too...just never hear about it or warned about it.
    But I totally agree with you

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    Gabe I think people are generalizing what you're talking about with the newer 3rd gens because I have to say that the third gen quality sucks.
    I've never owned an 06 or 07 but I'll assume they're much better quality then my car simply because I haven't heard anything bad with them. 3rd gens have broken firewall welds, spun bearings, and the 12 and 13 models have a weird evap problem.
    But again there provably was some bad thing gs on the old ones too...just never hear about it or warned about it.
    But I totally agree with you

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    The Member michaelwfox's Avatar
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    Great write up Gabe.

    However, we are complaining about the 2008+ EJ257. Which in general is outdated and prone to ringland failures. Also, many people have theorized that the ringland problems are due to increased temps from using UELH.

    Timing chains might suck for extremely high HP builds but, the majority of people aren't doing that. Timing chains cut down on maintenance costs in the long run.

    The FA series motor is a better motor. Crawford even admitted to this in their BRZ build.

    I'm glad you've had a good experience with the EJ257 but, according to your write up you aren't the typical Subaru owner. The typical Subaru owner would benefit greatly from an FA series motor.
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    I bet everyone wishes they made this instead. Lol


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    Double post. Sorry. Can be deleted.
    Last edited by LENSPEC; 01-18-2014 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelwfox View Post
    Great write up Gabe.

    However, we are complaining about the 2008+ EJ257. Which in general is outdated and prone to ringland failures. Also, many people have theorized that the ringland problems are due to increased temps from using UELH.

    Timing chains might suck for extremely high HP builds but, the majority of people aren't doing that. Timing chains cut down on maintenance costs in the long run.

    The FA series motor is a better motor. Crawford even admitted to this in their BRZ build.

    I'm glad you've had a good experience with the EJ257 but, according to your write up you aren't the typical Subaru owner. The typical Subaru owner would benefit greatly from an FA series motor.
    Quirt is referring to the extra cylinder wall thickness (like the EJ20X series) due to smaller diameter pistons, the increased valve angle which reduces turbulence on the intake and exhaust. Quirt is not referring to the timing chain. Trust me, I had to replace my bicycle timing chain twice on my small block 350 when I was a teenager. The third time I bought a double roller timing chain. That motor had about 340 WTQ going to one camshaft which had solid lifters to the pushrods and non roller rocker arms operating 16 valves total. Each chain on the FA/FB engines operates less moving parts, but the timing chains are very large. Timing belts were introduced not as a "cost saving" idea, but for fuel injection cam timing correctness. This is less of an issue with the Subaru ECU as ign timing relies on the crank sensor while cam timing is used for AVCS and in combination with the crank sensor to detect misfires. Timing chains are seeing a comeback on most motors due to emissions and fuel economy. If AVCS is off by 5 degrees after 75K miles, the car is out of warranty anyway. I have never heard of a failed timing belt on an EJ motor. I agree that the valve angle is more optimal, the cylinder wall thickness is increased compared to the 2.457L, but the sacrifice is displacement. Yes, the engine is a more advanced design. A more advanced design does not necessarily mean it is a better motor for turbocharging. The only concrete advance of the FA/FB series is that the cam sprockets can be smaller which allows the valves to open at a steeper angle into the combustion chamber. This is a very small advancement, especially when forced induction is applied. I would have to say for the average Subaru owner who never goes beyond a Cobb Stage 2 OTS mapping, it is fine. For a halo car like the STI, you get more people like me. We will hate the timing chains. We will hate the fact that a longer stroke is needed to achieve a 2.5L displacement. We would rather keep the shorter stroke and sleeve the block for high end builds. Granted, there are other improvements such as better head cooling, better oiling to some critical areas, etc but these can all be done when building an EJ. It is still a direct acting (no valve lash adjusters or rocker arms) DOHC flat four. The NA horsepower bump is from direct injection. The 2.0 FA turbo is possible because of direct injection. However, going past the stage 2 range on a halo car would be very problematic. No longer are you just building the bottom end. You are now modifying direct injection which still has little options for fueling increases. But yeah, up to a stage 2 I am sure the fueling system could handle it. Those STIs that eventually get traded in wind up as someone's 500 WHP beast eventually. By far, the EJ engine parts are the least expensive of any import. It is the GM smallblock of Japan. What other motor can have 600 ft/lbs of WTQ at 3.5K RPM with less than 2.5L of displacement and pull till redline at 7K RPM? You can twin charge a a 1.8L or 2.0L with a supercharger and a turbocharger to get there, but we don't see those cars... yet... The STI will get an updated motor, more than likely the FB with a redesigned crankshaft instead of the cost cutting asymmetrical rods. It will still be oversquare but with a 90mm stroke (think of the NA FB) which is fine with a redline of 7K rpm and increased cylinder wall thickness. The exhaust on the FB is already poised for a front mount turbo (front mounting on an EJ requires a custom turbo manifold, but the gains are quite substantial sitting right next to the exhaust ports; think how much more power a 16G makes on an EVO versus an STI) or at least the the turbine for FHI's new electric turbo charger system (still under development, but licensed to BMW and VW already) coupled with a standard turbocharger in the upper location. If you have not looked at the FHI developed electric turbocharger, it is a leap forward in turbo design combining the best of a supercharger and a turbocharger (no parasitic lag and much less heat transfer to the compressor as the compressor is separated from the turbine which would optimally sit as close as possible to the exhaust ports). When you twin charge like that, the 2,5L Fx motor would be able to make 500-600 BHP from the factory while retaining the low end TQ characteristics that STI owners love. The incremental upgrades and the twin turbo legacys in Japan are all pointing toward a 2017 or 2018 STI that rivals GTR performance for half the price. Compressing air is all about ratios. Subaru has a 300 HP capable electric turbo design which BMW and VW are twin charging in testing as well. The electric turbo would be used to first compress the air to a maximum of 2:1 (at sea level, 14.7 PSI) pass the compressed air through a small water to air intercooler so the compressed air reaches ambient air temps, then compress the air again with the upper location standard type IHI turbo (it would be larger than the small electric turbo) at 2:1 then passed to the air to air TMIC for a total positive boost at sea level of 44.1 PSI all efficient boost. The net result is an insane powerband that rivals the Porsche GT2RS. FHI is making money hand over fist with their electric turbo. It only makes sense that FHI will continue the STI (another reason the STI is splitting away from the WRX) DNA and outdo the competition they license their technology to. FHI learned a valuable lesson with the GR STI. It was dumbed down and added too much weight with a chassis that never did good in rally compared to the GD or GC chassis. It was not raw like every previous STI has been. Heck, the 2009+ WRX was more raw. Even the styling of the 2015 looks more like the 2006-2007 STI (which are appreciating in value). Gone are the sharp angles, the expensive headlamps, and the launch edition has blue accent alacantra. When the GR STI came out, Austin lost two Subaru dealerships (both of which sold STIs from 2004-2007 by the truckload) and one opened outside of Austin which rarely had any STIs in stock. The simple fact that FHI invested into the electronics and design of an electronic controlled clutch type rear diff (for TQ vectoring between the rear wheels) on the 2015 STI means something big is on the horizon. A GTR feels like a goddamn boat when driving one. The MKIV Supra had the same problem. The EVO is a FWD crapbox with computer controlled front, center and rear diffs which novices can drive "fast" around corners. The STI has always been known as the bulldog of turbo cars. Lightweight, fulltime AWD with a rear bias with gobs of TQ to rip out of the turns. The STI is by far the loved AWD halo car worldwide. In the mid-late 60's muscle cars came out that was the working man's supercar. The STI aims to be the same. You can expect the EJ257 to remain the powerplant in the STI until Subaru finishes the final design of the next gen STI (much like Subaru pulled off in 2004 with the 2.5L USDM STI; Japan was pissed lol). FHI knows it has more competition now. They not only are aiming to outgun MHI, they want to outgun the USDM muscle cars (think Camaro and Mustang top end models) as the STI is the muscle car of Japan and has been since the 90's.

    Here are some pics and links:

    Look at this timing chain mess. Expect a newer version that simplifies this crap with a double roller design without driving the water pump (an electric water pump would replace the chain driven pump) allowing a straight (>-<) type shape using two double roller chains:



    With the water pump gone, imagine the chain as a double roller without the guides:



    Boy howdy, just one casting away from a mount for the turbine side of the electric turbo (sitting right off of the exhaust ports):



    Valve's are angled in the heads on the FA/FB which significantly lowers tendency to ping (nice flame kernel and increased flow in and out of the chamber):



    The significant upgrade from the EJ207/257 is this (angled valvetrain pictured above):



    A good article on the FB 2.5L:

    Subaru FB-Series Engine: Subaru Flat-Four Engines – Car and Driver

    In 2007, FHI filed several patents for an electric turbocharger. CPT came into being soon afterwards based in the UK. Check out their current offerings to better understand electric turbocharging:

    Homepage

    The point is, don't expect for the STI to "die" off. Expect a huge surprise that blows current USDM muscle cars away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsibanez View Post
    Gabe I think people are generalizing what you're talking about with the newer 3rd gens because I have to say that the third gen quality sucks.
    I've never owned an 06 or 07 but I'll assume they're much better quality then my car simply because I haven't heard anything bad with them. 3rd gens have broken firewall welds, spun bearings, and the 12 and 13 models have a weird evap problem.
    But again there provably was some bad thing gs on the old ones too...just never hear about it or warned about it.
    But I totally agree with you
    These are all known issues with proven reasons why:

    07 ringland failures: An early batch (including my 07 and all of the 07 limited STIs) received non turbo fuel pumps. Ouch.
    08 ringland failures: A mapping error (seen in tuning tables) eliminated the fuel cut boost resume that previous STIs had set at 9 PSI and the ECU mapping did not have any timing retard like the 16 bit ECUs. Subaru issued a mapping update.
    09 spun bearings: Bad batch of bearing material mainly in the WRX EJ255.
    12 and 13 evap issue: Hoses pop off the EVAP solenoids. Zip tie them. Mine are zip tied and codes disabled.

    All other failures are due to bad tunes / too much TQ for the stock pistons to handle. These are very few issues compared to many other "quality" manufacturers like Honda. The 2000-2002 1/2 S2000 had serious oiling issues where not enough oil got to the heads causing burnt and bent valves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Cool SRT4.
    Funny thing is at night with lights on in the rearview mirror, neons look a lot like bugeyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabedude
    ...

    Thank you for participating and sharing your experience/knowledge.

    Welcome back.
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