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The BIG BRZ Bickering Brief!

91K views 1K replies 97 participants last post by  joesubaru7 
#1 ·
Awesome Scion FR-S coverage:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1163


Gotta be over 100+ photos and videos there so enjoy.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually a fan of this Scion. I've hated all Scion cars and the brand's image up until now, but this could definitely change my mind *possibly*. That's if it comes with the performance to back up that exotics look.

Now, will they be calling the car the Toyota FR-S in other markets where there is no Scion?
 
#805 ·
I already have put my money where my mouth is, twice; see response above:

My daily driver has 100 HP less than my Impreza and is slower in every measurable way. It's also a far better car despite being RWD. If that meets the criteria for putting one's money where one's mouth is, I've bought two such cars but only one Impreza.

Those two small RWD cars are slower than a turbo Impreza, have less power than a turbo Impreza, have less room than a turbo Impreza, but are are better cars than the turbo Impreza because they get dynamics right, whereas no Subaru of which I am aware has managed to do so in the same manner.

Am I on the right track towards answering your question or are we talking across purposes though?
 
#808 ·
Am I correct in thinking that subaru finally put properly bolstered seats in one of their cars with the advent of the BRZ? If so, I wonder if we will be able to retro-fit them into our rexxes.

sent from my kindle conflagration
 
#814 · (Edited)
Sheesh Rex, didn't I tell ya that a lot of the backlash was from trying to compare the BRZ to the WRX when they are totally different cars? ;)

Then you go and ask a question where you literally try to make the BRZ even more of a direct competitor to the WRX by attributing it's driving characteristics to a pretend car that is otherwise the same as the WRX.

Ah well, I guess we are all doomed to never understand each others' position.

To answer your question though, yes. When I was last shopping for a car and didn't need more than 2 doors and no backseat, I bought a RSX over the WRX of the time. 65 less hp, 1 billion less torque, and no where near the same straight line acceleration. (Edit: Whoops! Not enough coffee, the WRX of the same year only had 30 more hp and 1 million more torque, but same principles apply) But the car fit my purposes, was lighter, and felt much more balanced weight-wise. Can my WRX go around a turn faster? I believe so, but it doesn't feel the same and isn't as easy.

And before anyone even says, I'm in no way trying to say the RSX was anywhere as good at handling as the BRZ supposedly is. Just saying that, when my life circumstances allowed, I did choose the underpowered smaller car because of how it felt to drive.
 
#823 ·
Ouch, sorry to Rex_Harrison and to all then, I did not actually intend to come across as aggressive. RH asked if someone, and I took that to be anyone reading, had put their money where their mouth is and bought a car as described (low power, good handling etc.). I realised I'd done so twice (probably more than twice, but twice with reasonable recent examples anyway) so I responded. Then I didn't know if that was the point of the question (now I don't know if the question was even directed at me or nonspecific readers, but that's another story).

Anyway, sorry, just talking.
 
#824 ·
Its ok...let it out. We're here for you!

I for one, thought it was an excellent response, with no apologies to Rex_Harrison or anyone else, needed.
 
#825 ·
Well I, for one, was highly offended. In penance, I think that Spiros will need to make an appearance at CF2013, share a beer around the campfire, and recite the Cretin's mantra.



(A shot in the face is better than two knobs in the hand)
 
#833 · (Edited)
We're pretty sure you're the "most interesting man alive" .. but without proof.. its just a theory ;) lol


On the topic.. Personally and having driven the car I like it. It has old sports car balance with new car nice n smooth. Is it UNDERpowered? No, I think its exactly what should be in that sort of car and I'll explain why. People are already cracking them up. I can guarantee that every yahoo out here that wants more power would spin the sucker around unintentionally in the first few days they owned it. Its a forgiving car if you know what you're doing. If you dont.. well then you should just leave the traction control on and be happy it doesn't have more power. Its a drivers car, not a fanboi's car.

All that said, yeah sure its not exactly a drag race winner. Everyone knows that. If you guys will remember when I posted that even with 100hp+ more than a FRS (BRZ.. same thing) I could NOT keep up in the corners and I was overdriving my wrx like no one should. I'm talkin on throttle sliding around corners and could not keep up with the FRS with much less power. Any non-professional driver that says they can get a wrx or sti to keep up is fulla poo. The FRS really doesn't need more power. Would more be nice.. well hell yeah, but it doesn't need it.

If the driver has a wiener of reasonable size.. or at least one sized larger than their straight line ego.. neither do they ;)

Another thing to mention, NO car with the engine OUT IN FRONT of the front wheels (wrx/sti) is going to handle well without a miracle and lots of suspension work and then even still it will never outhandle a marginally set up RWD car. The geometry, roll center, f/r bias and so many other factors of physics are against it.

They are very much not the same. But we've been over that. Personally one of my favorite sports cars (amongst many) are the old Lotus's (I'd give a few toes for an Elan in good condition) the triumph spitfires and the pinnacle.. a Porsche 356speedster of the early 60's. THOSE were sports cars.. On skinny tires and almost nothing for hp they'd outdrive and outfun just about anything of modern day. That's subjective all the way, but those who agree with me are who the FRS and BRZ were built for.
 
#835 · (Edited)
yeah they really dont make cars like that anymore. Handle like cats, bad brakes, bitchy sidedraft carb's.. buzzy drivetrains.. smelled like old dead animal inside...

Way back when cars were cars.. not living rooms or daycare or entertainment centers on wheels. Real bare bones mechanical transportation. When car folks really knew what they were doing (because we had to) and automotive art/form/function were one and people actually enjoyed driving.

Sadly those days are just about gone.

I'd just about kill to be able to have the fundage to just start collecting clean examples of those days. lol
 
#836 ·
Mid engined, 1.6 litre. But same principle as the BRZ - lightweight, nimble, small. Carry more speed through the corner and you've already got a head start on the musclecar. Quite frankly, 1.6 liters was scary enough in a car made of fiberglass! :eek3:
 

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#839 ·
Wow look at the pedal placement...you're like kicking the pedals, not pressing them :rotfl:
 
#840 ·
They move in an arc similar to how your foot moves.. vs against it. Its actually very comfy to drive cars set up like this.
 
#844 ·
Yep, the beetle-derived pedal cluster that I bought for the buggy is floor-hinged. I never had a problem with it in my 2 beetles.

Gorgeous Europa. Gotta love Lotus for doing their own thing...
 
#846 ·
I got curious and looked up which car with bottom pivot pedals is more recent, the VW Beetle or the Ferrari Enzo Ferrari.

I can't tell. The VW Beetle was made from... 1938 until 30.07.2003.

The Ferrari Enzo Ferrari was listed as a 2003 model, but there seems to be a chassis designated as a 2004 model and given to... the Pope.

For both the VW and the Ferrari, I couldn't make this stuff up! Anyway, it seems the Ferrari is more recent if we count the Vatican 2004 car. However, the VW is a better and more significant car. Take your pick.

Now, if FIATs later than the Enzo Ferrari also use down-pivoted pedals, I don't know. This could be FIAT-wide in the touring and sporting cars (Maserati, Ferrari etc.). If so, FIAT wins.

Back to regular programming.
 
#849 ·
The Zonda looks really hard to heel-toe shift.



In college, I designed a pedal system for our SAE car. It was floor-hinged because the driver sat in a more reclined position (like an F1 car), and that was much more ergonomic and easier to package chassis-wise. for more upright seating positions like big trucks, I'd argue top hinge setups are more ergonomic.

I used Catia which has built-in modeling tools for ergonomics. You can design a human analog based off of percentiles, plop it into the vehicle model, then test things like range of motion, reach angles, what percentage legs are extended, etc. It's pretty cool stuff. I designed most of the ****pit with this model, including a home-brew suspension seat that was like a sort of hammock supported by the chassis members. I sewed it myself out of ballistic nylon and seat belt webbing. (Real men use sewing machines!) It did a great job absorbing the shock to the driver of jumping off a 5' kicker.
 
#850 ·
I watched Back to The Future last night and had a flash of inspiration:



+



= ???

I could see picking up a rear-ended BRZ and chopping into into a 2015 Delorean, complete with real gullwing doors (maybe even red steelies with whitewalls, lol). Not that any of this will actually happen, but it was an amusing thought experiment...
 
#857 ·
#855 ·
Tastes do differ. May all our problems only amount to this issue in life, that'd be great.

I've owned two different cars with less power than my Impreza, RWD, and no rear seat. I've done so at two different times. The first time, I initially did not own a couch. The second time I did not own a bed. I picked owning two slower impractical cars simultaneously instead.

Then again I've also eaten spaghetti every day endlessly to buy a wristwatch. I don't really care what time it is any more than I care to have more power from a car at this point. It's all (misplaced?) priorities...
 
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