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The BIG BRZ Bickering Brief!

91K views 1K replies 97 participants last post by  joesubaru7 
#1 ·
Awesome Scion FR-S coverage:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1163


Gotta be over 100+ photos and videos there so enjoy.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually a fan of this Scion. I've hated all Scion cars and the brand's image up until now, but this could definitely change my mind *possibly*. That's if it comes with the performance to back up that exotics look.

Now, will they be calling the car the Toyota FR-S in other markets where there is no Scion?
 
#63 ·
i hear u , maybe in a few yrs when i could afford 2 cars ...altho i think scion and toyota offer better warranties etc than subaru ...and all the aftermarket companies modded parts and or dealer accessories that hopefully will be interchangeable like on the older classic thru hawkeye imprezas :)
 
#64 ·
I guess if looks is all that matters, I suppose one might conclude that it's a winner, EXCEPT that Toyota's version looks better (in the front at least), so Subaru still loses in the end since no one will buy it but Subie fans and even they will be massively disappointed by Scion TC/Honda Civic SI power levels which sad to say are completely insufficient even for a 2002 WRX fan, let alone the 300HP variants ('09-'11 regular WRX included by way of the Dynos disputing Subaru's relaxed figures). So, do you want to look sexy or go to 60mph in under 5 seconds with AWD grip to boot? The BRZ would be lucky to get there in 6.5 seconds, probably closer to 7. :sleep:

As-is, it's basically a 'modern RWD Miata' for the GTR wanna-be poser crowd. Thanks, but no thanks. Let me know when it has at least 400HP+ and can back up those looks with some go. Otherwise, it's just another 'ricer' vehicle letting kiddies think they can run with the big boys until they get passed like they're standing still by an actual GTR (sadly of which this is a direct copy-cat vehicle, looking like a near identical variation of it at a glance). :confused1
 
#65 ·
As-is, it's basically a 'modern RWD Miata' for the GTR wanna-be poser crowd. Thanks, but no thanks. Let me know when it has at least 400HP+ and can back up those looks with some go. Otherwise, it's just another 'ricer' vehicle letting kiddies think they can run with the big boys until they get passed like they're standing still by an actual GTR (sadly of which this is a direct copy-cat vehicle, looking like a near identical variation of it at a glance). :confused1

That's pretty harsh. Expecting 400+ hp is unrealistic for a car priced in this range, and this lightweight. Besides, do you really think Toyota would sell a Scion with LFA power levels at a tenth the price? Now would a 300 hp STI version be nice? Absolutely, but don't expect it to come cheap.

Besides the Miata, the V6 Mustang, and maybe the Genesis, what is this competing with? The 370z is $10k more, and any German RWD coupe is a LOT more.

Honestly, I'm holding judgement on the drivetrain until I actually drive one. Looks at the Gen 1 Miata, it has like 98 hp stock, but it's a ton of fun. Sure, you'll be completely schooled on the dragstrip, but you'll wipe off their laughing chuckles on the AutoX track.



Sent from my Droid 2
 
#69 ·
Magnum, there is one thing you are missing. If it looks so much like the GTR to you, take a look at the old Supra's. I see a lot more of that design element in the car than the current GTR. The truth is most cars are at leats a partial rip off of each other. This car when you look at what data was released is designed to compete with things like RX-8's. The truth is that until the car comes out nobody knows what it will be capable of. 200hp is probably plenty for the tires and weight of the car. After it comes out we will see what can be done in regards to additional power and grip.

Truth be told I am looking forward to the car because it might be a great platform for SCCA events which would allow me to leave the WRX as a daily driver for the winter performance I wanted it for.
 
#70 ·
I'll be curious to see what the 2013 WRX looks like and if there's any basis what-so-ever in this BRZ platform or not. Supposedly Subaru didn't have the means to create its own new sports car design and yet we're told the next WRX will likely be a complete redesign 2-door coupe, which I find oddly coincidental. The BRZ platform may be a simple starting point to base the next AWD WRX around. I've seen some say it won't work, but I don't know enough about the suspension design to conclude it couldn't be modified from this new starting platform into something else over the next year, perhaps keeping much of the same looks, but offering a turbo/AWD variation on the chassis. I would certainly be more interested in this new 'look' if it were 300+HP and had AWD (RWD just doesn't work well in Ohio winters).
 
#73 ·
Magnum,

The reports I read about AWD coming to the BRZ is that the engine was moved too low and rearward for any current Subaru AWD platform. Not to say they can't cook up an entirely new AWD drivetran, but the current symmetrical AWD design that is a hallmark Subaru feature cannot be easily onto the BRZ.

Of course, all the the statements I just made (and many of the arguements all over this thread) are about a car that doesn't really exist yet, so like I said, I will reserve judgement until I can get behind the wheel and give one a good shakedown.

After said shakedown, I'll probably still buy an STI... ;)

Sent from my Droid 2
 
#74 ·
Yeah, it's a REAL pig alright. It's such a big pig that it kept up with a BMW M3 on the race track and does a real slow 4.4 seconds to 60 (compared to an STI doing 4.9 seconds).

The curb weight on a Nissan GTR is around 3800 lbs. I guess it must be a REAL PIG since it weighs more with a V6 than a Mustang GT does with a V8! Oh wait. 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. HELLO! :drive2:
I wouldn't own either. Magazine 0-60 numbers have little to do with my car selection at this point.
I have driven the new Mustang, though not the high horsepower variety. It may be only 3500 lbs, but it feels heavy to me, even compared to my humble wagon. That's a deal-breaker for many people when they are selecting a sports car. Kudos to Ford for building a nicely engineered, modern Mustang, though! :)
 
#75 ·
I think they are spreading rumors about this car having no AWD and no Turbo to get everyone all crazed up. I hear everyone saying, "If it was AWD and Turbo'd I get it" So...when it actually comes out...its gonna be AWD and Turbo'd and everyone is gonna be like....:woocow: and go buy one. Either way...I'm not interested....I just want to fix my 06 Wrx lol.
 
#77 ·
Yeah, I don't get the allure of the whole 0-60 time and quarter mile time. I mean that is a controlled test to give a relative benchmark on a car stock from the dealership. The question to me is always how long can I get away with doing something like that to my car? Odds are on most of them not long. Besides, how often are you drag racing your daily driver. I mostly look for a car that is comfortable for me to sit in for 3+ hours of driving and makes me smile on my daily drive into work. Because the truth is that if it can't do those two things what is the point of buying the damn thing in reality. If you have the money to have a weekend toy car and a daily driver more power to you.

From the way it sounds from the reviews the BRZ/FR-S should have the smile factor down. As to the rest just have to see what it is when it comes out. I still put money down that the car will be too small for me to comfortably drive.
 
#78 ·
im also getting very interested in this car... seems like a great recipe, lightweight, enough power, emphasis on handling, awesome. i hope that this car does well, and remains light for years to come, and more so that the price remains reasonable throughout its evolution. I also wonder how this car will evolve and at what rate from one model year to the next. Being as though i have a 2011 wrx, its nice to just sit back awhile and see how or if it does change from one model year to the next.
 
#81 ·
I read that article. It stood out to me in flashing neon that the guy almost immediately wished he had more power in the canyon. 0-60 may not mean much for daily driving, but I can guarantee you a car that does 0-60 in under 3 seconds is not going to have ANY trouble accelerating to 65 mph on an on-ramp in well under 5 seconds without even trying (yeah it'd last a LONG time). I don't know where most of you drive the majority of your miles, but I'm on an L typed setup to work, meaning slow 35 zone to the freeway ramp and then almost a straight shot to the exit (gentle curve at some spots). I don't need to corner at high speed. I need big boosts of speed for accelerating and passing and need to maintain it for 10 miles or so plus a few short roads in-between the two main drags.

Yeah, cornering on rails is fun and where I used to live, that came up on the way to work a lot. Here, it's 90 degree turns on back roads and straight shot freeway. I'd rather have more power and less cornering than the other way around right now and hence any mods to this car will be straight power to start. I had a ProbeGT two cars ago that could corner great, but at 165HP, some mini-vans could pass me at a side-by-side red light start. THAT sucks and cornering doesn't make up for it, IMO. I'm sure this car will go better with lighter weight and 200HP, but it's not going to beat a WRX, especially a Stage 1 modified car (which costs almost nothing to do).

Before I considered this car what-so-ever, I'd want to know how much headroom, etc. it has. I tried to sit in certain cars at the auto show and there's no flipping way I'd want to try and squeeze into an Elise. This WRX sedan already has less headroom than my '04 Wagon (which had no moon roof).
 
#82 ·
Quarter mile trap speed would seem to be a better measure for the kind of activity you're referring to. Even then, though, a car could trap at 130mph and still not appeal to me as a fun driver. Less computers, more driver involvement. :)
 
#83 ·
Less computers, more driver involvement. :)
This 100%...

That's why I wouldn't really care to own a mushbox Mercedes or Lexus or some other luxury thing. Yeah they are powerful, but their plush. Not my style. Even my uncle's 2011 335i complete with 6-spd felt more like a linear powered mushbox compared to my STI. The clutch felt like it didn't even exist, it was so easy to push down. Don't get me wrong, it was a nice car and fun to drive, but it just felt like it was missing something. It certainly wasn't the "Ultimate Driving Machine" that I felt connected to even like on my slow ass 1996 318i 5spd I had.
 
#88 ·
And like I said, if you run out of power, no amount of cornering or 'connection to the road' will make up for it.
Intelligent people can disagree. My little truck, making about 100hp, is actually far more fun to drive than my wife's 250hp minivan. RWD, stick shift, and throttle response make it so.
 
#89 · (Edited)
Autocar UK - Subaru BRZ review/first drive

This is the Subaru BRZ development prototype, which is most easily introduced as Subaru’s take on the Toyota FT-86 – athough that statement is factually contentious.

When, in 2008, Toyota chairman Katsuaki Watanabe decided he wanted an affordable 2+2 coupe, he found that his company was already at full capacity building cars it could sell, and its development engineers were flat out working on alternative powertrain projects. As a result, the Toyota FT-86 and Subaru BRZ rear-drive, front-engined coupes are, in fact, mostly a Subaru production. Oh, and there will likely be another spin-off, badged as a Scion FR-S, for the US market. .........

What’s it like?

At its heart is the Subaru 2.0-litre flat-four front engine, codenamed FB20 and established already in the Impreza. However, it sits 12cm lower in the engine bay than in the Impreza, and 24cm further back. The result is a claimed 45:55 per cent weight distribution front to rear.

In the prototype we drove the result was a joy. Subaru was claiming 210bhp at 7000rpm and a redline than starts at 7500rpm, plus maximum torque of 170lb ft at 4000rpm. However these were estimates, and are up on the projections for the identical FT-86 unit.

Regardless, it felt quick enough, and, thanks to the Toyota derived cylinder head and direct injection it speeds up faster than any other normally aspirated Subaru boxer engine. Only from 1800-3000rpm is the absence of boost slightly noticeable.

The Subaru BRZ feels agile and light-footed. Turn in to a fast corner and it understeers only very slightly, but trail the brakes or lift mid-corner and that quickly turns in to controllable oversteer. At high speeds it feels very stable – thanks in no small part to ist relatively long 257cm wheelbase.

Read Article: autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Subaru-BRZ-2.0/


. :D
 
#91 · (Edited)
Those magazines said the merkur was a great car too.. also earned coty from either motor trend or car and driver.. cant remember.

I owned/built and tracked one for 7 years... it was not what they cracked it up to be, in any aspect. It was what they said it was after I dumped $15K into it.. but that's a story for another day.

Bottom line, magazine articles aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

I've driven numerous z24 package cavaliers. I know exactly how they handle (all were different shades of terrible) and I'd not give one to my worst enemy. To each their own, but you CANNOT compare that car to the car of topic here. Not in the way you're attempting to anyway.

Now remember I used to be hard core euro ford guy... the sierra mk1/merkur platform started out as the "probe" concept. So naturally I was curious about the car they released as the "probe" and I've driven one of each generation.. again there's no comparison to a true f/r platform sports car. Apples and oranges.

The only cars you can compare this to would be the miata, S2k, genesis or possibly the 350z. That's it. With exception to the z they're light, rwd and front engined with mild hp numbers and all roughly within the same price range.

Until you can make a direct comparison to a car in the same class you need to just stop posting in this thread. You've made your opinion known and you've given us nothing constructive so go away so the rest of us can talk about the car without your blabber.

Not only that but the damned thing hasn't even been released yet. We cant start slamming a car that hasn't gotten a chance to put tire to pavement in a post production environment.



Hey man.. those things were pretty wicked for only needing 3 wheels to get around a corner :D
 
#92 ·
Even if it only has 200 HP I'm still interested, if it handles like they say it is going to.
Agreed

I love that so many people are upset that it only has 200hp. 10 years ago the WRX came to the states with 222hp, and it was amazing, now 200hp is compared to driving a Ford Escort (no offense to escort owners, fine car). The vehicle I've had the most fun driving (riding) was my 1989 Kawasaki ex500, I think it might have had 75hp, but I could throw it around turns and embarrass GSXR1000 owners all day long at the track. In my opinion, power doesn't mean anything in regard to "fun to drive". The lighter, more responsive a car, the more fun to drive in my book (see Miata, S2000)
 
#93 ·
Exactly, and more importantly, 170ftlb of torque at 4k rpm. And the car weighs 2700lbs (rounding up conservatively)

a 200hp n/a engine will kick the crap out of a 200hp turbo engine all day long every day of the week. Throttle response will always be better, they run cooler and there is far less complication in the engine bay.
 
#94 ·
No lie...I seriously thought about putting some big sways and some good struts and springs and tires on it, I bet it would be fun! Then i decided to fix my WRX...ha...anyways....back on topic...I still think its gonna end up like the pontiac solstice and saturn sky...it won't last long on the market...unless it is the future of the wrx and sti and they are just testing the waters with this....I guess we will just have to wait and see!
 
#96 ·
This thread went from the awesome BRZ concept, to people arguing about ford probes quick haha. Back on topic, I personally think the BRZ will do good. If the mazda rx8 is stil around theres no reason this car cant last. Dont think it will be like the solstice or sky, or atleast for Subarus sake I hope its not. Cant wait to actually see and drive one.
 
#97 ·
If the mazda rx8 is stil around theres no reason this car cant last.
Well, unfortunately, Mazda killed the RX-8 after this year due to poor sales in recent years, so not the best arguement there. :rotfl:

The Miata is as popular as ever though.
 
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