The BIG BRZ Bickering Brief! - Page 25
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This is a discussion on The BIG BRZ Bickering Brief! within the New Cars/Prototypes Forums forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; I agree that this car should remain N/A. Leave the turbo segment to the WRX/STi. IT makes good business sense ...

  1. #361
    The Member michaelwfox's Avatar
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    I agree that this car should remain N/A. Leave the turbo segment to the WRX/STi. IT makes good business sense also.
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  3. #362
    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    I dunno about the business sense. If they produced a turbocharged car that started under $30K (which they probably won't), could keep up with a Boxster S in the corners, and nearly in a straight line, I personally think that they might have a winner. (My basis for that being that I would want to test drive one)

    What will likely happen, though, is that they'll produce a hopped up one sooner or later, and price it high enough to where I'm in "oh, hell, I'll just get a used 911" territory.
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    Registered User MagnumXL's Avatar
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    From what I've read, they cannot offer a turbo version because they signed a contract with Toyota saying they would not modify the basic engine layout for 2 years (obviously very few that could afford it would want a Scion model with no power if you could get a Subaru Turbo one with 350HP at the crank for only $5-7k more (i.e. Base WRX versus old basic Impreza). Thus, they're going to have to do things like lighten the car, program the engine to let it rev a bit higher, etc. Carbon fiber isn't cheap and it's not an effective replacement for a turbo, but they have no choice due to this contract they signed. It's the only thing they're allowed to do, but of course they'll spin it to sound like it's a good idea and they "want" to keep the turbo lines separate for the WRX STi, etc. That's a load of horse manure in reality, though. They put turbos in a lot more than the WRX STi. It's not only in the regular WRX, but it's available in the Legacy, the Forester and formerly the Baja as well. Subaru doesn't want to admit, but most of the dealers will tell you the contract they signed is the reason there's not going to be a turbo version (STi or otherwise) any time soon.

    It doesn't make good business sense at all to leave it N/A. This car could compete with the Porsche Boxster head-on with a turbo in it (in both looks, cornering and performance). The WRX is AWD and 4-door. There IS a lot of overlap with some customers, but for others it's a different market segment altogether. Some want AWD (launch, handling and winter capability) and no RWD sports car is going to change that. I know 2-door coupes typically look a bit nicer, but 4-door functionality is pretty darn nice for actual usability unless you almost never drive with more than two people in the car. It's not really a sports car, though. It's a high powered sporty sedan. Sports cars are something you use in nice weather as a secondary car. Only poor people use them as their regular transportation and they're probably giving up something else...like solid food to get a true high powered one, not "sporty handling" cars like the Miata (or now the BRZ) that lose their lunch on the straight-ways to many V8 pickup trucks and even some high-end Mini-Vans. If great handling is all you care about, fine. I maintain my ProbeGT (7.4 seconds, so similar to the BRZ) was a lot of fun on twisty country roads. It went around corners great (contrary to the beliefs of some that hate American cars; it was half Mazda after all), but my daily commute was a lot of straight roads and freeways and you couldn't help but notice large block engine vehicles (even trucks, etc.) that seemed to effortlessly pass you on a normal launch from a light while you had to rev it to the line to keep up or pass them. I can guarantee you I don't EVER have that problem with my WRX. I rarely floor it and I still leave 95% of all vehicles in the dust without even trying. To me, that's worth the difference in price.

    No, it's just the contract and you can see why either side would agree to it. It's about risk management and recouping the investment costs. If one outsold the other 10:1, someone would walk away a clear loser. This way, it's just a badge and maybe little things like the exhaust and some weight reductions, etc.
    Last edited by MagnumXL; 03-28-2012 at 12:36 PM.
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  5. #364
    Registered User GarrettKoonsman's Avatar
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    Magnum, that post could have been two sentences and said the same amount.
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  6. #365
    The Member michaelwfox's Avatar
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    I doubt this car will ever be in 911 territory. S2000 maybe. That is why I think it makes sense. They would grab both sports car markets. Turbo/AWD and NA/RWD.
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  7. #366
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnumXL View Post
    I know 2-door coupes typically look a bit nicer, but 4-door functionality is pretty darn nice for actual usability unless you almost never drive with more than two people in the car. It's not really a sports car, though. It's a high powered sporty sedan. Sports cars are something you use in nice weather as a secondary car. Only poor people use them as their regular transportation and they're probably giving up something else...like solid food to get a true high powered one, not "sporty handling" cars like the Miata (or now the BRZ) that lose their lunch on the straight-ways to many V8 pickup trucks and even some high-end Mini-Vans.
    Of all the cars mentioned, the Miata is a true sports car.

    Whether trucks or vans are quicker in a straight line isn't relevant.

    If Subaru/Toyota are looking to revive the 2-dr sporting coupe, they are correct to ignore straight line performance.

    I recommend naysayers find and drive a 1,5L AlfaSud Sprint, for example; I use this as an example because it also had a boxer motor. Find one with a green cloverleaf. That's the idea.
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  8. #367
    \_(ツ)_/ Rambo's Avatar
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    I still think everyone should reserve judgement on the power untill they've driven one. My father in law's 91 Miata barely put 94 hp to the ground, but I never felt like I needed more power. I could still scare myself silly in that car. Stock Miatas ran circles around my WRX at the AutoX track.
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  9. #368
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambo View Post
    I still think everyone should reserve judgement on the power untill they've driven one. My father in law's 91 Miata barely put 94 hp to the ground, but I never felt like I needed more power. I could still scare myself silly in that car. Stock Miatas ran circles around my WRX at the AutoX track.
    Of all the cars in that price range in the past twenty years, very few could stand up to the Miata:
    MR2
    Clio
    106

    The S2000 is not relevant due to cost. Vans and trucks are no more relevant than trains, that can also be quicker in a straight line.

    Considering the list above though I fully agree with you and know exactly what you mean.
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    \_(ツ)_/ Rambo's Avatar
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    Really? The 106? I drove one in Europe once, and I didn't think it was much to shout about. I'll grant you the Clio and MR2 though. As far as ownership goes, the MR2 is a pain to work on. I always loved how the Gen 1 Miata engine had tons of space in the engine bay, and everything was so easy to reach and work on. Newer models have lost that, sadly.
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  11. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambo View Post
    Really? The 106?
    The 106 Rallye had better steering than a Porsche 944, was more nimble than a Fiat Punto GT, and could stop almost as well as the former and better than the latter. Brilliant car. It's only fault was that it wasn't made in Japan but in France, and as prices dropped on "well" used examples more and more kids bought them and then bought the farm. 120HP is more than enough to make widows.

    Contrast the Corolla "AE86" (and I use those initials with some disgust due to the horrific Japanese cartoon and drifting "scene" that has developed). Getting past the stigma associated with the Corolla, the 1,6L motor was brilliant. High revving, 112 to 120 HP depending on the market, and at least ten years ahead of its time. The Corolla itself let the motor down. Terrible damping, silly steering and spring choices, horrific Yokohamas, confused interior etc. - typical 80s Japanese car.

    Subaru and Toyota would do well to capitalize on the Corolla plague ("drifting" has been a burden on society I think...) but I hope they don't do anything more than carry on an "image" without actually replicating it.

    Toyota used the same motor in their best car of period, the MR2. There, it was placed in the correct spot in the chassis, and the car worked brilliantly.

    Anyway, hopefully the BRZ is better thought out than the Corolla. I've got misgivings about using the Subaru boxer rather than a Toyota motor but we'll see. As an idea I like what they're doing, at least on paper.
    Last edited by SD_GR; 03-28-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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  12. #371
    Pro Manscaper Mikie13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambo View Post
    I still think everyone should reserve judgement on the power untill they've driven one. My father in law's 91 Miata barely put 94 hp to the ground, but I never felt like I needed more power. I could still scare myself silly in that car. Stock Miatas ran circles around my WRX at the AutoX track.
    That's exactly what I was getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambo View Post
    Really? The 106? I drove one in Europe once, and I didn't think it was much to shout about. I'll grant you the Clio and MR2 though. As far as ownership goes, the MR2 is a pain to work on. I always loved how the Gen 1 Miata engine had tons of space in the engine bay, and everything was so easy to reach and work on. Newer models have lost that, sadly.
    Which is why LS swaps in those things are an awesome Frankenmod
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    \_(ツ)_/ Rambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    Which is why LS swaps in those things are an awesome Frankenmod
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  14. #373
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    I was looking at the used car dealership and found a 2009 STI with 40k miles stickered at 28k. I cant imagine affording that much car and be willing to get a Limited BRZ for the same price instead.
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  15. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    Which is why LS swaps in those things are an awesome Frankenmod
    Pontiac Fieros with LS swaps are pure win!

    (actually pretty much anything with an LS swap is win)
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  16. #375
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    The Fiero is extremely endangered though and will likely be extinct soon. I have not even seen one this year, in a car-crazed area with favourable weather and in which they were once plentiful.

    The Fiero did teach me two things:
    1. Not every mid-engined car is as good as an MR2; in fact few are (MGF, sorry, I had hopes but...).
    2. The Jaguar XJ-S was intended to be mid-engined (the Fiero's butress pillars allowed me to make the connection even though I've driven cars with the same feature for 14 years, it had never clicked in my mind).

    The BRZ is likely to do better over time.
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    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

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