The BIG BRZ Bickering Brief! - Page 12
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This is a discussion on The BIG BRZ Bickering Brief! within the New Cars/Prototypes Forums forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; I went back to page 6 and did not see the Car & Driver review, so here it is... 2013 ...

  1. #166
    Registered User hagen505's Avatar
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    I went back to page 6 and did not see the Car & Driver review, so here it is...
    2013 Subaru BRZ Sports Car - Prototype Drive - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

    feel free to delete this if it is on page 5..

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  3. #167
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnumXL View Post
    What a great contract they made. So they're basically not allowed to make their car what makes a Subaru a Subaru (i.e. AWD and/or turbo). In other words, Toyota knows people would choose the Subaru model over theirs if they offered either one.
    I don't think the information is factual, but even if it were, neither AWD nor a turbo are what makes a Subaru a Subaru. Neither is a boxer motor; Subaru have continued to offer vehicles than are neither AWD, nor turbo, nor have a boxer motor just as they always did.

    I think there are those that would chose a Subaru over a Toyota, and those that would chose a Toyota over a Subaru. I also think those that would chose the Toyota over the Subaru are both more numerous, and correct.

    If I were shopping for the car I'd buy the dealer, not the marque since it's a badge clone.
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  4. #168
    Registered User MagnumXL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    I don't think the information is factual, but even if it were, neither AWD nor a turbo are what makes a Subaru a Subaru.
    Neither is a boxer motor; Subaru have continued to offer vehicles than are neither AWD, nor turbo, nor have a boxer motor just as they always did.
    The "Love. It's what makes a Subaru a Subaru" slogan is a North American market slogan. They only sell AWD over here since 1997 and so AWD is pretty much synonymous with Subaru over here now. It's certainly the deciding factor that brought me to Subaru. I can take or leave a turbo (power being equal in a given comparison/choice, I'd rather NOT have the turbo), but AWD is a game changer.

    FWD can be OK in the winter, but AWD is night and day better in the winter months. And if you want AWD with something sporty and a traditional manual transmission, the list starts to become pretty short indeed, especially within a certain price segment. It's how I arrived at buying the WRX over the other competition in the sporty/sports segments. I live in a Northern state. Winter sucks with RWD and is tolerable at best with FWD. AWD is like a miracle in the winter. I only lost traction briefly twice last year in my '04 WRX and that was with no traction control, all-season tires one of the worst snowfalls on record for Ohio. Before Subaru, I was used to correcting skids a lot more often.

    There's a reason why Subaru doesn't offer their smaller cars that have FWD over here. Ask Fiat how well they're doing so far. I hope Jay-Lo is magic for them because they surely don't appeal to me.

    In any case, until Subaru differentiates their BRZ from the identical car from Toyota, it's not quite a Subaru. It's a Subota or a Toyaru or something. Choosing a car company based on headlight/taillights is not what one is normally used to. Pointing out that one should pick the car based on a dealer just illustrates my point that Subaru needs to alter this car as soon as possible to make it stand out from the Toyota/Scion version.
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  5. #169
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnumXL View Post
    I can take or leave a turbo (power being equal in a given comparison/choice, I'd rather NOT have the turbo),
    Me too. What's not there can't fail.

    but AWD is a game changer.
    I have two FWDs, an RWD, and an AWD but I don't use them in a climate like yours. I see your point about traction in true heavy winter.

    There's a reason why Subaru doesn't offer their smaller cars that have FWD over here.
    They gave up. They're probably right, at least for the time being. At the time they pulled the Justy next to nobody was buying small city cars, and the Justy wasn't even their smallest car. The Subaru 600 was brilliant in its day but the US market is very different. Distances can be huge, parking is very different because the streets are usually very wide (nobody folds their mirrors that I've seen in the US, for example), and fuel is very inexpensive -- plus, displacement is not taxed in the US, leading to huge motors etc.

    Ask Fiat how well they're doing so far. I hope Jay-Lo is magic for them because they surely don't appeal to me.
    The Fiat 500 is out of place in the US because unlike the Mini and the VW Beetle, it's not simply a larger, more expensive, yet less useful namesake for a smaller, historic, smarter vehicle; it's an actual city car and fits the same niche as its older namesake, whereas the VW and the Mini do not -- they're too large, and just as expensive as a more practical car.

    The BRZ is more like the VW and Mini than the 500 in that sense; nobody needs an RWD two door and sensible ($en$ible) people would probably be better off buying something smarter from Toyota or Honda. It's a fashionable car at the moment, playing on nostalgia for a Corolla from the 80s that was ill-conceived, but the best the Japanese could do at the time, and it stuck in people's mind.

    In any case, until Subaru differentiates their BRZ from the identical car from Toyota, it's not quite a Subaru. It's a Subota or a Toyaru or something.
    Sure. That's fine though. The only thing that matters is how many people pay for one. Die-hard "Subaru-is-AWD" folks seem unlikely to buy one anyway from what I've read here; for them, there's always the Impreza or Legacy etc.

    Choosing a car company based on headlight/taillights is not what one is normally used to.
    VAG. GM. DSM. Fiat. PSA.

    Pointing out that one should pick the car based on a dealer just illustrates my point that Subaru needs to alter this car as soon as possible to make it stand out from the Toyota/Scion version.
    I see your point, and to be fair I'd tend to do this anyway. I tend to buy the dealer, not just the car.
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    You know it is funny to me how many people are talking about they would buy the Toyota version but not the Subaru. Particularly since we don't know what they will be yet, and it is Scion or Subaru not Toyota or Subaru. We don't even know yet what features etc will exist between the two vehicles. Yes, the underlying engineering will be the same, but there are tons of other little details that can make one more attractive than the other. That being said, I would end up buying the Subaru version, because my dealership is a Toyota-Subaru dealership and doesn't have Scion offered.

    And Magnum, I made it through the entirety of the last winter in Ohio in a Honda Civic with Cooper All Seasons that were half dead. It sounds to me like you were over-driving your tires and the conditions more than anything.

  7. #171
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    interesting side note, I got to oogle over a lexus LFA in person yesterday. Its an exquisite piece of exotic automotive art and function but I noticed that the brz concept looks (though very muted) strikingly similar. Not surprising since the same engineer designed both.

    Design wise, the engine-trans is too far down/rearward to accommodate awd in this layout. Its not going to happen in this car. AWD is not its purpose.
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  8. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
    And Magnum, I made it through the entirety of the last winter in Ohio in a Honda Civic with Cooper All Seasons that were half dead. It sounds to me like you were over-driving your tires and the conditions more than anything.
    I "made it through" the winters just fine (I've never gone off the road in over 20 years of driving here). I just had to correct a lot more skids than with the Subaru '04 WRX and generally had to go much slower than I could under similar exceptionally bad conditions. But then the tires for both my Z24 (215-60R14) and especially my ProbeGT (225/45R16) were very wide and thus had a tendency to float more in snow than cars with more narrow tires. My '04 WRX was 205/55R16 and so it wasn't as wide as either of my previous two cars, which may have helped in the winter on top of the AWD. The '11 WRX here, though is 235/45R17 and so it's wider than ANY of the previous cars I've owned and an inch larger in diameter so I'm not certain how well it will handle in the winter by comparison, at least in snow. I'm thinking maybe I would have been safer getting a second set of wheels (205/45R16 seems to be popular for winter tires on the '11), but ended up getting Michelin Pilot XAlto all-seasons (highest rated all-season in the "High Performance" category on Tire Rack and the only one rated really well for snow in that category). I'll definitely be taking it a bit easier than with the '04 until I see how it handles in snow. The tires have done well in wet/cold so far and still feel similar to the Dunlops in warm weather (gas mileage also went up as they are a low-rolling resistance tire).
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  9. #173
    Registered User 2.0Rs's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty obvious that awd is far better in the snow. People can "make it through" most winters, it just depends which way they take and how long it will take to get there. I love when a couple local gto guys told me awd is unnecessary because they limped their gto's down the street on a flat road to the local taco bell in 4" of snow.

    I'm hoping to test drive one as soon as they come in. Has there been any actual hp figure released from subaru yet or has it just been speculation?

  10. #174
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    When I say made it through I meant that I slide all of once in the car. Now, a RWD sports car probably won't be very good in the snow, heck when I was looking at cars the Mazda dealer basically told me not to buy an RX-8 because of its issues in bad weather. What I am mostly saying is that winter driving is more about being aware of the limits of the tires and the conditions than the drive system. I am sure the BRZ/FRS won't be too bad in the snow if you put on snow tires, mostly because of the NA engine putting out under the 300hp mark.

  11. #175
    Registered User bradsorensen's Avatar
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    wow cool car. yep needs a turbo

  12. #176

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    It's no secret that the Toyota FT-86 will finally make its production-spec debut next week in Tokyo, and ahead of that, the automaker's UK office has released the first official photos and some initial specs. In Europe, the car will officially be called the Toyota GT 86.

    Cutting right to the chase, here are the specs that are now official, from the Toyota UK announcement. Obviously, there's more to come:

    2.0-liter boxer with D4-S injection (direct and port injected)
    197 hp @ 7,000 rpm and 151 lb-ft (205 Nm) @6,600 rpm
    6-speed manual or automatic transmissions
    17-inch wheel/tire package standard
    4,240mm (167 in.) long, 1285mm (50.6 in.) high, 2,570mm (101 in.) wide
    53:47 front-to-rear weight distribution
    475mm (18.7 in.) center of gravity

    As demonstrated in the photos, everything is basically in line with what we've seen so far in the various leaked materials. So, start getting excited. In addition to the sharp styling outside, the interior looks the business, and the "86" fender logo is just plain cool. The GT 86 goes on sale in the UK next June.

    Click: autoblog.com/2011/11/26/europes-toyota-gt-86-sports-car-revealed-arrives-june-2012/

    ---------------------------

    and from Autocar UK : autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260225/


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  13. #177
    Registered User 2.0Rs's Avatar
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    Please subaru have more power then that.

  14. #178
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    ^ This

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  16. #180
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    Im falling in love with this car
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