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This is a discussion on F1 2013 Thread within the Motorsports Talk forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by Soobvirgin Did anyone else feel like the more frequent pit stops, brought on by even more severe ...

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soobvirgin View Post
    Did anyone else feel like the more frequent pit stops, brought on by even more severe tire wear, caused confusion as to the running order? Like, through the entire race?! It reminded me of the torture I put myself through by watching the Daytona 500 recently (never again), when the lead only changed because people pitted.

    I just thought it made the race a little difficult to follow. It wasn't clear until near the end of the race who was actually doing well. Or am I completely wrong here?
    You're right. I felt the same way.
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    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    Well, that answered that very well. Thanks for the info! It appears that I've missed a little controversy.
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    Would Never, Ever Say Something Bad About an Admin's Mom SonicWagon's Avatar
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    I can't beleive I'm going to say this but I think you guys are wrong about Vettel.
    The regulation changes over the past three years have mostly been to slow down the red bull. The only real cheating incident is the adjustable ride height that once discovered was changed so that adjustments would require a tool.
    "It is at our most challenging times that we must cheat our very hardest" - Eric Theodore Cartman
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonicWagon View Post
    I can't beleive I'm going to say this but I think you guys are wrong about Vettel.
    The regulation changes over the past three years have mostly been to slow down the red bull. The only real cheating incident is the adjustable ride height that once discovered was changed so that adjustments would require a tool.
    Again my problem is mainly with RBR namely Christian Horner and Andrian Newey, and Bernie Ecclestone. And no, the reg regarding requiring a tool was already in the sporting regulation, RBR just ignored it.

    They also actively exploited the throttle over run rule to find a loop hole even by their own admission to help their car. And it worked; It got RBR millions of $$$ in the few races they ran it, SV a good ranking in the race and valuable driver points, helped preserve Adrian Newey's reputation as a cheater....er aerodynamacist, and ultimately RBR and SV another title. If both RBR's would have been DQ'd from that race and HRT scored 1 solitary MFG point in that race, they would still be around this year, Fernando Alonso would be a 3 time champ, and Ferrari would be $millions richer.

    That's the facts about cheating for 1 race and getting away with it.

    But RBR didn't just cheat for 1 race.

    I guess agree to disagree.
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    Well they were exploring the rules if they had to issue a clarification to stop them they weren't technically cheating. Cheating to me is crash gate and spy gate.
    "It is at our most challenging times that we must cheat our very hardest" - Eric Theodore Cartman
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06wrx4me View Post
    Again my problem is mainly with RBR namely Christian Horner and Andrian Newey, and Bernie Ecclestone. And no, the reg regarding requiring a tool was already in the sporting regulation, RBR just ignored it.


    That's the facts about cheating for 1 race and getting away with it.

    But RBR didn't just cheat for 1 race.

    I guess agree to disagree.
    I don't know that Vettel is the one who deserves the criticism 36 poles didn't come easy, he is a great driver, no doubt.

    Now if we are talking about RBR it is a diffenent story the ride height deal WAS cheating I felt at the time that they should have investigated that more. How long was it on the car is the question.

    This is nothing new in F1 if they caught everything the great Schumi would have 2 championships.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonicWagon View Post
    Well they were exploring the rules if they had to issue a clarification to stop them they weren't technically cheating. Cheating to me is crash gate and spy gate.
    It was against the spirit of the rules, they knew it, everyone knew it, they admitted they knew it, but since it required them wording the reg exactly to say it, they were allowed to race with it. LAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by SonicWagon View Post
    I don't know that Vettel is the one who deserves the criticism 36 poles didn't come easy, he is a great driver, no doubt.
    Well they are easy to come by if your car is 2 secs faster than everyone else because you are changing the ride height to cheat.

    Now if we are talking about RBR it is a diffenent story the ride height deal WAS cheating I felt at the time that they should have investigated that more. How long was it on the car is the question.
    It had been on the car from 2010 till it was discovered.

    Bernie has covered up all 3 incidents of RBR cheating and never levied a fine. In the old days you got your hands slapped to the tune of $millions and /or suspensions. Its crap and sad.

    This is nothing new in F1 if they caught everything the great Schumi would have 2 championships.
    I don't doubt Ferrari cheated with Schumi, but 2 things are different now.

    1. The spec tire. Ferrari had enough money to have specific tires made for their car and overnighted. Schumi himself said it was a different era and why he struggled soo much with the spec tire era. He could drive absolutely as hard as he wanted the whole race without tire deg issues. He's a helluva driver when hes running full tilt.

    2. Transparency. We live in the age of camera phones, DVR's and youtube. No one can hide what they are doing any where, at any time.
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    I've already came to a realization, that Formula 1 isn't really about talent or doing the right thing. With Bernie, its more about if he likes you, he will let more things go, and if your bringing in money for the sport, you will be treated better!

    I know one example is Nico Hulkenburg. I know for a fact, he is one of the top 10 drivers on the field but still manages to loose a racing seat! His drive last year in Brasil was amazing and the crash he got into with Lewis was unfortunate but it was wet conditions.

    In the comment 06wrx4me said about Transparency... In today's time, its almost impossible! With like 1293848 mega pixel camera's and slow mo's they have, in 1 second you can get a complete detail of a teams car!
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    I've only watched since Rosberg was world champion but even then, people sidestepped the rules. That's the point. If your car is legal why is it on the field? To fill the sixth row?

    I remember lead shot used as tare weight, moving aero bits, fans, active suspensions, traction control, team orders... Nothing is new under the sun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    I've only watched since Rosberg was world champion but even then, people sidestepped the rules. That's the point. If your car is legal why is it on the field? To fill the sixth row?

    I remember lead shot used as tare weight, moving aero bits, fans, active suspensions, traction control, team orders... Nothing is new under the sun.
    Dam you've been watching f1 for 33 years!!! You've legit seen everything then lol And i am a big fan of just not having any regulations on technology and letting the sport go to the limit with double diffusers and f-ducts etc...

    I say, try it until you get caught and they make it ilegal. Its not ilegal if it has never been tried before
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    Would Never, Ever Say Something Bad About an Admin's Mom SonicWagon's Avatar
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    Here is an article from 94 another F1 team cheating another illegal car. Schumacher won the WC with this car. Senna died trying to catch it. Schumacher got his first pole at Monaco a Couple weeks after Senna died.
    In the same year Mclaren was found to have an illegal automatic gearbox.

    Motor Racing: The tarnishing of Benetton: Grand prix&#039;s leading team show a united front, but more trauma awaits on the road from the podium to the pits - Richard Williams explains the fall from grace of Formula One&#039;s audacious high-flyers -
    "It is at our most challenging times that we must cheat our very hardest" - Eric Theodore Cartman
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06wrx4me View Post
    It was against the spirit of the rules, they knew it, everyone knew it, they admitted they knew it, but since it required them wording the reg exactly to say it, they were allowed to race with it. LAME.
    I dunno...I guess I've always seen racing rules as being fairly black and white. It's either spelled out in the rules, or it's not. Haven't all forms of motorsports (NASCAR comes to mind) played the game of figuring out where the dictated rules end and begin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonicWagon View Post
    Here is an article from 94 another F1 team cheating another illegal car. Schumacher won the WC with this car. Senna died trying to catch it. Schumacher got his first pole at Monaco a Couple weeks after Senna died.
    In the same year Mclaren was found to have an illegal automatic gearbox.
    What!?! Your saying McLaren's 1994 car was an Auto!? First time i heard this! crazyy
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfieldsWRX View Post
    I dunno...I guess I've always seen racing rules as being fairly black and white. It's either spelled out in the rules, or it's not. Haven't all forms of motorsports (NASCAR comes to mind) played the game of figuring out where the dictated rules end and begin?
    It was fairly black and white, but searching for valuable driver and MFG points, and since they were loosing real badly to Ferrari, RBR looked at the rule trying to explore any potential loop hole. So the rule as written banned the use of blown diffusers and the use of engine mapping to blow exhaust over the diffuser to gain an aero advantage.

    RBR said they were using the illegal map to "cut torque in the mid range to improve wet traction". But essentially it was the same throttle programming that created post combustion, blew exhaust gas over the diffuser and created downforce. RBR argued that since the 2012 car used a different diffuser and exhaust outlet, it wasn't a blown diffuser (pinky swear). The technical steward disagreed with them, but since the rule as written didn't specifically say "thou shall not use throttle over run in any circumstance", he defaulted to the rules committee and let them race.

    It was immediately clear in the race it had helped the Red Bull with Vettel finishing second after a shiesty pass on Button, but the car had a lot more pace and aero stability. Had Vettel not been held up by Hamilton (who was a lap down and very hard to pass), he would have won. After the race the stewards penalized Vettel for his off track pass of Button and gave him a penalty which landed him 5th. Had the map not been allowed to run, the RBR's definitely would have finished lower in the standings and the outcome of the 2012 season would have been vastly different.

    This spawned the rules committee to issue a technical clarification before the next race that spelled out in black and white that "thou shall not use throttle over run in engine mapping...period".
    Last edited by 06wrx4me; 03-20-2013 at 08:08 AM.
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  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andor View Post
    Dam you've been watching f1 for 33 years!!!
    I'm afraid so... Sigh... I remember sponsors like Parmalat and Marlboro. Now that's diversity -- milk and cigarettes. I'd seen Grands Prix before that, in the late 70s, but I only remember them vaguely, like a dream. I think I remember Jones and Andretti back then but it's so foggy that I don't know if it's an actual memory or if it's a memory of a story being retold to me when I was still a child but older.

    And i am a big fan of just not having any regulations on technology and letting the sport go to the limit with double diffusers and f-ducts etc...
    That costs money, meaning less teams will be interested, and that makes widows, which is also bad for business.

    I say, try it until you get caught and they make it ilegal. Its not ilegal if it has never been tried before
    This is generally how the rules are interpreted. If it's not explicitly banned and it makes the car quicker, it's on the car tomorrow. The trouble is that sometimes it's on the car even if it is explicitly banned. Money changes everything.
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    The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. Ernest Hemingway
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

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