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This is a discussion on Teh Cone Dodgin' STX Wagon within the Motorsports Talk forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally Posted by Big Sky WRX post your corner weights when you get a chance- good luck tomorrow Sorry for ...

  1. #46
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sky WRX View Post
    post your corner weights when you get a chance- good luck tomorrow
    Sorry for the late response. I learned much about my setup this weekend, mostly what excessive rear toe out will lead to. So I decided to tweak some things last night. Here's the numbers:

    Code:
               LF      RF     LR       RR
    Weight    1027    933     716      628
    Camber   -3.3    -3.3     -1.4    -1.5
    Toe       1/8     1/8     1/16     1/16
    
    Cross%  49.9
    Left%    52.7
    Rear%   40.7
    The toe settings are MUCH better and the cross weight feels GREAT! The left balance could be better, but the car still feels pretty damn good.

    I did manage to snag a 2nd place in a car that was on insta-spin cycle and we driving like an asshat. The guy who won was Cy Lee who was in a national prepped '89 Civic Si with a Quaife. This car is quick! Setup was done by none other than Chris Shenefield, who then later that day laid down an absolutely stupid time in that same car.

    I'm pretty pleased with the first time out. I need to make a few more tweaks and I think this car will ba able to lay down some pretty amazing times next weekend. I also need to work on driving this car with much more precision. This car is so much more capable than last year's setup, that I really don't need to throw the car around to get it to rotate. This car will reward proper car placement and speed control in spades.
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  3. #47
    Registered User Pzary3233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    Sorry for the late response. I learned much about my setup this weekend, mostly what excessive rear toe out will lead to. So I decided to tweak some things last night. Here's the numbers:

    Code:
               LF      RF     LR       RR
    Weight    1027    933     716      628
    Camber   -3.3    -3.3     -1.4    -1.5
    Toe       1/8     1/8     1/16     1/16
    
    Cross%  49.9
    Left%    52.7
    Rear%   40.7
    The toe settings are MUCH better and the cross weight feels GREAT! The left balance could be better, but the car still feels pretty damn good.

    I did manage to snag a 2nd place in a car that was on insta-spin cycle and we driving like an asshat. The guy who won was Cy Lee who was in a national prepped '89 Civic Si with a Quaife. This car is quick! Setup was done by none other than Chris Shenefield, who then later that day laid down an absolutely stupid time in that same car.

    I'm pretty pleased with the first time out. I need to make a few more tweaks and I think this car will ba able to lay down some pretty amazing times next weekend. I also need to work on driving this car with much more precision. This car is so much more capable than last year's setup, that I really don't need to throw the car around to get it to rotate. This car will reward proper car placement and speed control in spades.
    I am SOOO Jealous about your Front Camber!!!!

    How much rear toe out did you have before these specs?

    I'm wondering what 1/8" will do in front...hummm how'd you like it?
    2002 PSM WRX <- going back to stock Suspension parts GALORE for sale!
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  4. #48
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    I am SOOO Jealous about your Front Camber!!!!

    How much rear toe out did you have before these specs?

    I'm wondering what 1/8" will do in front...hummm how'd you like it?
    I probably had at least 1/4 total rear toe out. Not intentional, but WAY too much. The rear end was nice and lively in slaloms, but in anything resembling a sweeper, once the rear end would get some weight on it and take a set the toe out would send the rear end off. I mean, the car would basically spin on it's axis.

    The camber is great! I'm going to play with this setup for a bit, but I have a sneaky feeling I may very well end up going with slightly more front bar.
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  5. #49
    Registered User Pzary3233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    I probably had at least 1/4 total rear toe out. Not intentional, but WAY too much. The rear end was nice and lively in slaloms, but in anything resembling a sweeper, once the rear end would get some weight on it and take a set the toe out would send the rear end off. I mean, the car would basically spin on it's axis.

    The camber is great! I'm going to play with this setup for a bit, but I have a sneaky feeling I may very well end up going with slightly more front bar.
    Oooh that sounds like a lot of fun! Maybe you could get into some D1 Drifto stuff?

    I'd be careful with the front bar... I talked with Chris F. a good bit about front bars, he said a 22mm or possibly a 24mm would be all that should be needed. I cannot remember what the Hotchkis bars are rated at up I would assume that they are close.

    His reasoning was that braking was compromised with the bigger bar, and that braking was more important that a little bit better turn in.
    2002 PSM WRX <- going back to stock Suspension parts GALORE for sale!
    The Project STX Sedan Build Thread
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  6. #50
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    I'd be careful with the front bar... I talked with Chris F. a good bit about front bars, he said a 22mm or possibly a 24mm would be all that should be needed. I cannot remember what the Hotchkis bars are rated at up I would assume that they are close.

    His reasoning was that braking was compromised with the bigger bar, and that braking was more important that a little bit better turn in.
    Yeah, I'll see. It doesn't need much if any, which is why I'm going to maximize this setup before I take the plunge. If anything it will be a 25mm Perrin adj.

    I'm not quite following the braking thought as the braking will cause the car to pitch forward and a roll bar doesn't control pitch.
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    Yeah, I'll see. It doesn't need much if any, which is why I'm going to maximize this setup before I take the plunge. If anything it will be a 25mm Perrin adj.

    I'm not quite following the braking thought as the braking will cause the car to pitch forward and a roll bar doesn't control pitch.
    Yes the Perrin 25mm Adj bar is looking like a good choice to me as well... or maybe the whiteline 24mm adj bar.

    As he explained it if you're going into a corner and you are braking hard, the stiffer the bar the more likely you will loose grip if it is the least bit bumpy (our courses tend to not be so smooth- last weekend being the epitome of bumpy). Then if you're trying to trail brake into the corner he said you are more likely to get ABS to kick in. Basically he said that the car was too unstable in braking with the 27mm bar and that he wouldn't go any bigger than a 24 or 25mm bar.

    He explained it much better than I did... I'll find his PM...

    One thing I noticed was when I was coming out of turns the car was lifting the inside front tire off the ground and it was spinning... :-(
    2002 PSM WRX <- going back to stock Suspension parts GALORE for sale!
    The Project STX Sedan Build Thread
    Race hard or go home!

  8. #52
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    As he explained it if you're going into a corner and you are braking hard...
    Well at that point you've already lost.

    The softer bar will definitely be more forgiving, but that may not be what I'm after. We'll see, I don't have enough data to make that decision yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    Well at that point you've already lost.

    The softer bar will definitely be more forgiving, but that may not be what I'm after. We'll see, I don't have enough data to make that decision yet.
    Touche

    I tend to brake into the corner sometimes...
    I know bad habit. Maybe that is why I got beat in my own car...
    2002 PSM WRX <- going back to stock Suspension parts GALORE for sale!
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  10. #54
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    Touche

    I tend to brake into the corner sometimes...
    I know bad habit. Maybe that is why I got beat in my own car...
    I drove for **** last weekend, so you're not going to hear anything from me.
    Last edited by wrx wagone; 04-24-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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  11. #55
    Registered User Pzary3233's Avatar
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    Haha, we'll see...

    I couldn't keep my head in the car, I was in awe of how my car felt...
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  12. #56
    Moderating on the run! Big Sky WRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
    Sorry for the late response. I learned much about my setup this weekend, mostly what excessive rear toe out will lead to. So I decided to tweak some things last night. Here's the numbers:

    Code:
               LF      RF     LR       RR
    Weight    1027    933     716      628
    Camber   -3.3    -3.3     -1.4    -1.5
    Toe       1/8     1/8     1/16     1/16
    
    Cross%  49.9
    Left%    52.7
    Rear%   40.7
    what's your weight ? looks like 3304 w/ driver, mine was 3318 (200# driver) 3118- I actually thought mine would be lighter (assuming the scale is correct)- I hope to have it weighed again this year

    mine looked like this

    LF RF LR RR

    980 961 718 659

    your crosses are better - almost spot on at 50:50 , mine were 50.6/49.4- which w/o corner weighting isn't too bad

    left % 51.2
    rear % 41.5

    a little rear toe out = good, too much rear toe = handful

    Interesting on the front bar discussion as John is having the same thoughts- he bumped his spring rates up this year and decreased his bars f/r, but now having second thoughts and contemplating going back to a bigger front bar
    "Simplify and add lightness." - Colin Chapman

  13. #57
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sky WRX View Post
    what's your weight ?
    The car is about 3050ish depending on gas.

    I still need to get a lightweight battery in it, *maybe* seats, and I'd like to get a lighter catback.

    I got to play a bit more with the car today, and I'm slowly getting there. I'm really thinking a *slightly* stiffer front bar may be the way I need to go. I upped my front rebound damping today and that helped greatly.

    Still more playing to do.
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  14. #58
    Registered User ButtDyno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pzary3233 View Post
    Yes the Perrin 25mm Adj bar is looking like a good choice to me as well... or maybe the whiteline 24mm adj bar.

    As he explained it if you're going into a corner and you are braking hard, the stiffer the bar the more likely you will loose grip if it is the least bit bumpy (our courses tend to not be so smooth- last weekend being the epitome of bumpy). Then if you're trying to trail brake into the corner he said you are more likely to get ABS to kick in. Basically he said that the car was too unstable in braking with the 27mm bar and that he wouldn't go any bigger than a 24 or 25mm bar.

    He explained it much better than I did... I'll find his PM...

    One thing I noticed was when I was coming out of turns the car was lifting the inside front tire off the ground and it was spinning... :-(
    Did you ever find this PM?

    I am going to get my ABS ECU swapped out one of these days (the TSB for the 02-03 cars, maybe others) but I did not notice any increase or decrease in ice mode when I added or removed the big front bar. It happens a lot less with the StopTechs, for whatever reason. I wonder if Chris had the upgraded ABS unit or not?

  15. #59
    Registered User Pzary3233's Avatar
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    couldn't find the PM I know we talked about it on the phone. I'll PM him and ask again...

    I asked the dealer to swap out the ABS controller but they wouldn't do it because the car didn't have the correct symptoms... I told them that is just plain sucked and it was big time over sensitive. They told me to get better tires... lol I was running Hankook R-S2 tires at the time. They said that the RE92s were better.... I walked out shaking my head...
    2002 PSM WRX <- going back to stock Suspension parts GALORE for sale!
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  16. #60
    Registered User wrx wagone's Avatar
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    Alright, very late in week update... running a solo program is VERY time consuming, never let anyone tell you otherwise.

    This last weekend Philly Region we had our second event. I had some new sponsor logos on the car.



    This event ended up being more of the same from the first event. The rear end of the car is well too loose. I was running less rear toe out than last event (~1/8" total) and I even disconnected my rear swaybar after my first run. That did help, but it wasn't nearly enough. I'm also having the problem that the car is currently so unstable that I rarely have any sort of steady-state conditions to get a firm handle on what the car is really doing. It also doesn't help that this course is basically transition hell, nothing but slaloms and gates.

    For my third run I got an experienced car setup guy in the car to just help me with trying to get a handle on the dynamics I'm trying to fix.

    My impressions of the car was that is had a major imbalance in roll stiffness. The front exhibited fairly vague turn-in and then once the car did take a good set in a corner the car would push. I was also getting tire wear on the outside edge of the tires even with running -3.3 deg. camber. The rear end was well too stiff and wouldn't let the rear end of the car get planted in corners. Disconnecting the rear swaybar helped this condition, but the balance still wasn't there.

    The Plan:
    A larger front bar. For those keeping track, I had on a Hotchkis hollow front sway. A Perrin 25mm front bar was picked up from JSC Speed and installed last night: (Hotchkis has bushings on)




    I must say I was a bit concerned about the fitment as Perrin only offers one bar for WRX Sedan, Wagon, and STi. I figured that if it fit the STi it should fit the wagon, and honestly, I don't think the fitment could be much better. This bar may be a bit narrow for you sedan guys, but I like it.

    Initial Impressions:
    With the bar on less than 24 hours and only a commute to work, the bar already make the car feel much more balanced. I still have the rear sway disconnected, and the rear feels very stable.

    I'm going to dial out all of my rear toe out for the Autocrossers, Inc. event this weekend at FedEx Field in Landover, MD. I'm hoping that these changes will get me one more step closer to getting this little buggy to haul ass, which it needs to. I have an '89 Civic Si with a Quaife LSD to catch.
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