Effect of ethanol and isopropanol on NOx?
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This is a discussion on Effect of ethanol and isopropanol on NOx? within the General Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Accidents. forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; I've read the older threads on emissions, including one thread where PlatinumWRX dropped to a 87 octane / 91% isopropanol ...

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    Effect of ethanol and isopropanol on NOx?

    I've read the older threads on emissions, including one thread where PlatinumWRX dropped to a 87 octane / 91% isopropanol mixture to pass testing. My questions are still unanswered though, so I'd appreciate any info:

    What is the effect of ethanol on NOx? How about HC?

    What is the effect of isopropanol on NOx? How about HC?

    If a vehicle's EGR is functioning and it seems the cat may be marginal (NOx is just over the limit and the EGR is tested OK), will adding either ethanol or isopropanol to the fuel reduce NOx? Will either simultaneously increase HC or other emissions? Any ratios recommended?

    Motor is Toyota 5S-FE and must meet CA 93 emissions.

    Thanks!
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    Bumping my own thread with thoughts...

    My suspicion is that alcohols with more carbons that methanol or even ethanol will actually increase NOx emissions while lowering HC but I'm unsure. Anybody?
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    bump i wanna know the answer too
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    Morning bump for combustion experts?
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    This thread takes me back to the cemistry days 2 semesters ago. Are you runing methonal already and are unsure how to pass with that sort of set up? This is some interesting stuff, but it is kinda over my head. Stokiometric combustion equation is needed, which could be real nasty with the addition of gasoline to the mix, but I have no idea. What is HC?

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    acording to this http://www.e85fuel.com/whatsnew/NRDC...udy%204-07.pdf
    Ethanol (E85) will lower NOx by about 30% but raise the hydrocarbon emissions by 22%. im not to sure about isopropanol. the only difference between ethanol and isopropanol is the location of the alcohol group.
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    Mace Windu devilfluff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not-EWRX View Post
    What is HC?
    Abbreviation for Hydrocarbons. In this case, more specifically Hydrocarbon chain emissions, usually raw, unburnt fuel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not-EWRX View Post
    Are you runing methonal already and are unsure how to pass with that sort of set up? What is HC?
    No methanol. Unmodded stock normally aspirated motor running summer mix CA 87 octane fuel. The NOx readings are marginal and I'm trying to see if there's an additive that'll help pass testing. The EGR system is functioning and I've changed the sensors used by EGR for manifold temperature and vacuum, plus vacuum lines. The mani runners seem clean and all seems well but NOx is up there.

    I suspect the cat may be on its way out after 14 years and 200k miles but if I can squeeze by, it'll buy me some time to replace the cat vs. having to do it right now and not being able to shop around much etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX13oy View Post
    acording to this http://www.e85fuel.com/whatsnew/NRDC...udy%204-07.pdf
    Ethanol (E85) will lower NOx by about 30% but raise the hydrocarbon emissions by 22%. im not to sure about isopropanol. the only difference between ethanol and isopropanol is the location of the alcohol group.
    Thanks. The 2 alcohols differ in the number of Cs also, and I suspect isopropanol will raise HC more than EtOH as a result but am unsure. Also, E85 is I believe >~80% EtOH. Now, from what you say, one option might be to run a gallon of it plus some "normal" fuel in the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilfluff View Post
    Abbreviation for Hydrocarbons. In this case, more specifically Hydrocarbon chain emissions, usually raw, unburnt fuel.
    Exactly. Do higher octane fuels raise or lower combustion temperatures? I'd want them lower for lower NOx from what I understand, but higher for lower HC. I can deal with somewhat higher HC if it drops NOx.

    Thanks for all replies, and any ideas always welcome. More?
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    Carbon ends up in alot of stuff. I have probably helped build like 30 Ethanol (E85) tanks this year at my job. We make big storage tanks for future refinment of the stuff. I never kenw you could run a car off of it. Do you see gains from doing somthing like this? HOw bout a tax write off,LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not-EWRX View Post
    Carbon ends up in alot of stuff. I have probably helped build like 30 Ethanol (E85) tanks this year at my job... I never kenw you could run a car off of it. Do you see gains from doing somthing like this? HOw bout a tax write off,LOL.
    The gains are substantial if you're a farmer...

    I'll look around for some E85 in my area if nobody has other suggestions, and see how it goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    Thanks. The 2 alcohols differ in the number of Cs also, and I suspect isopropanol will raise HC more than EtOH as a result but am unsure. Also, E85 is I believe >~80% EtOH. Now, from what you say, one option might be to run a gallon of it plus some "normal" fuel in the tank.



    Exactly. Do higher octane fuels raise or lower combustion temperatures? I'd want them lower for lower NOx from what I understand, but higher for lower HC. I can deal with somewhat higher HC if it drops NOx.

    Thanks for all replies, and any ideas always welcome. More?

    To my knowledge, octane doesn't affect combustion temperature...

    BTW E85 is 85% ethanol.

    I would say the gallon or 2 of E85 into a tank of fuel is a pretty reasonable idea
    Last edited by devilfluff; 06-13-2007 at 08:48 AM.
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    Thanks all!
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    Doh!

    Apparently, as of 2006, the number of stations in CA that sold E85 was... one. Yes, 1.

    If nobody knows where that station is/was, I think I'll add ethanol to the tank on my own.
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    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

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    Mace Windu devilfluff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    Apparently, as of 2006, the number of stations in CA that sold E85 was... one. Yes, 1.

    If nobody knows where that station is/was, I think I'll add ethanol to the tank on my own.
    I can find 4 in CA, but only one that is open to the public. Its in San Diego.
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    Thanks, I saw that. If I'm not down there any time convenient I'll add raw alcohol to the tank and see what happens.
    WRX Info Links, Courtesy TheJ
    Man is a brute.... If you're cruel to him, he respects and fears you. If you're kind to him, he plucks your eyes out. Alexis Zorbas
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

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