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This is a discussion on Break in? within the General Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Accidents. forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by Syncharmony I couldn't resist. I babied it to 995 miles but wasn't able to hold off those ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syncharmony View Post
    I couldn't resist. I babied it to 995 miles but wasn't able to hold off those last 5 miles. Since then...let's just say I'm really getting a good hang on heel-toe shifting and it's amazing. The pedals are spaced better for it (for my feet anyway) then they were in my bugeye. Anyhow, it's worth the wait. It's like any relationship, if you keep that rascal under wraps for as long as you can before unleashing it, the reward will be that much sweeter.
    the relationship part is true but a motors a little different. the reward for you is sweet but do you know if your motor is happy? only a catch can, oil analysis and cylinder compression check will tell you forsure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teflon_jones View Post
    So what's a "long time" and how many cars are you basing this on? Please keep in mind I've only owned 2 of my 20+ cars more than 3 years, and own 4 right now.
    A 140 mile oil change is ridiculous, sorry. That's why you have an oil filter. Particulate in the oil pan isn't going to make it back into the engine past the oil filter.
    and aftermarket oil pickups are not needed 100%. yet many motors blow when the braze fails and the pickup cracks. parallel fuel lines are not needed, yet the rule of thumb is 350HP. all these things are safety issues. there not needed but you cross your fingers and hope your not next on the BOOM list. safety over trumps the norm in my book. To each there own, better safe then sorry etc etc. if you don’t want to do a $20 oil change don’t do it.

    if someone else reads this and does, then he can and feel better about it. my 10 years in race bikes and cars has made me see what I need to see. with many tear down motors leading me to see what Motoman has seen. no one has to follow, I just know what works for me and that’s power with less blow by, less crap in my catch can, great oil analysis’s, great compression, and great MPG. when myself, friends or my old work has done motor rebuilds around here its safe to say one way works over the other a little better.

    Quote Originally Posted by jd92677 View Post
    My experience... I've owned 3 new cars and have broken them all in the same way, easy for 1000 miles, change oil... 3k miles change again...change every 3k thereafter. The first 2 cars (1994 Nissan Maxima, 2000 Subaru Legacy) lasted 250k and 225k miles before I sold them and I know the Legacy is still running at over 300k. I broke in my '11 WRX the same way, and expect the same result.
    Totally for sure possible! But what was the power output vs a new motor or another motor with same miles that had a different break in? whats the compression? How much oil did it use?
    I have never worked on an old car that didn’t have oil build up on the manifold or TB etc. way more on some than on others or on mine. Blow by is an inescapable threat but some rings leak more than others. This all boils down to power as you will be mixing oil, air, and fuel. then you add in the lost compression and you lose power.

    Can a motor last 300k with bad rings? Sure. Will it have all its power, MPG, and use zero oil? No way. From the pistons ive seen pulled out of motors (bikes and cars) some rings leak more than others. With my hands on ive always seen less carbon burns vs others and I say its because of the break in and the way I do it along with many others that believe and do it also.

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    Registered User dbya rx's Avatar
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    if subaru said to change the oil after 100 miles i would do it. if they say after break in, i would do it. if they say after 3k, i would do it. and if they even said dont change the oil for 10k, i would also follow that.

    you know why? because they have people over there with Ph.D's in mechanical enginering that designed the motor and figured out after many thousands of tests when it needs an oil change. anything more frequent than the recomended oil change is a waste of $$$. but if it helps you sleep at night, then so be it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    and aftermarket oil pickups are not needed 100%. yet many motors blow when the braze fails and the pickup cracks. parallel fuel lines are not needed, yet the rule of thumb is 350HP. all these things are safety issues. there not needed but you cross your fingers and hope your not next on the BOOM list. safety over trumps the norm in my book. To each there own, better safe then sorry etc etc. if you don’t want to do a $20 oil change don’t do it.
    I'd like to see the analysis that you've gotten done on oil with 140 miles on it please (or some similar mileage).

    And what is a "braze"?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbya rx View Post
    if subaru said to change the oil after 100 miles i would do it. if they say after break in, i would do it. if they say after 3k, i would do it. and if they even said dont change the oil for 10k, i would also follow that.

    you know why? because they have people over there with Ph.D's in mechanical enginering that designed the motor and figured out after many thousands of tests when it needs an oil change. anything more frequent than the recomended oil change is a waste of $$$. but if it helps you sleep at night, then so be it.
    I'm with you. He can feel free to waste money like that, it's his choice! The last time a mechanic tried to give me advice on this forum, he wasn't right and didn't understand how things in a turbocharged car work, despite claiming to have worked on them for years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    Totally for sure possible! But what was the power output vs a new motor or another motor with same miles that had a different break in? whats the compression? How much oil did it use?
    I have never worked on an old car that didnt have oil build up on the manifold or TB etc. way more on some than on others or on mine. Blow by is an inescapable threat but some rings leak more than others. This all boils down to power as you will be mixing oil, air, and fuel. then you add in the lost compression and you lose power.

    Can a motor last 300k with bad rings? Sure. Will it have all its power, MPG, and use zero oil? No way. From the pistons ive seen pulled out of motors (bikes and cars) some rings leak more than others. With my hands on ive always seen less carbon burns vs others and I say its because of the break in and the way I do it along with many others that believe and do it also.
    As far as the Subaru went, when I got rid of it, it burned no oil and got better mileage than my WRX does, somewhere near 30mpg highway. Also I broke in my GSXR the same way... 115k miles and counting (0 oil consumption). The way I see it and I've said this to everyone that has their own break in procedures... And no offense is intended but why would I believe that you, who has built, worked on, or taken apart 100 engines? 1000?, have more knowledge than a company that spends millions (billions?) of dollars on R&D and has built millions of engines, then supports them through a warranty? I don't know but I would say that Subaru is the expert on how to properly break-in a Subaru. But to each his own I suppose. I'll be enjoying mine for the next 250k miles

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbya rx View Post
    if subaru said to change the oil after 100 miles i would do it. if they say after break in, i would do it. if they say after 3k, i would do it. and if they even said dont change the oil for 10k, i would also follow that.

    you know why? because they have people over there with Ph.D's in mechanical enginering that designed the motor and figured out after many thousands of tests when it needs an oil change. anything more frequent than the recomended oil change is a waste of $$$. but if it helps you sleep at night, then so be it.
    i totally get what your saying. but remember as i said before, subi doesnt know all. there 1000k break in is for legal reasons and not for making power.

    but people with Ph.D's cant make mistakes right??? if thats the case go back one year and do what subi told you to do then and before that and since the beginning of the wrx. do 7500 mile oil changes! o wait thats right!! they moved it to 3750, WHY?? because peoples oil screens were getting clogged and motors were starting to blow. so the "Ph.D's" moved the oil change period back a whole hell of a lot. people makes mistakes and there word isnt god.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teflon_jones View Post
    I'd like to see the analysis that you've gotten done on oil with 140 miles on it please (or some similar mileage).

    And what is a "braze"?


    I'm with you. He can feel free to waste money like that, it's his choice! The last time a mechanic tried to give me advice on this forum, he wasn't right and didn't understand how things in a turbocharged car work, despite claiming to have worked on them for years.
    ill have to search around for a 140 miles analysis for you.

    a braze is not a weld. they take the two bolt flange and braze it to the pickup tube by heating the parent metal and letting the braze material melt and make a so called "weld." its cheap but they fail.

    some how i think you were being sarcastic but only trying to point out what many others already know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    there 1000k break in is for legal reasons and not for making power.
    I have seen no evidence of this though.

    but people with Ph.D's cant make mistakes right???
    This is a straw man argument. Both you and any reader ostensibly know and understand the answer, and since the answer is clear to all, there seems little point in bringing up a point that doesn't address the issue at hand if the only reason to do so it so then immediately defeat that point.

    if thats the case go back one year and do what subi told you to do then and before that and since the beginning of the wrx. do 7500 mile oil changes! o wait thats right!! they moved it to 3750, WHY?? because peoples oil screens were getting clogged and motors were starting to blow. so the "Ph.D's" moved the oil change period back a whole hell of a lot. people makes mistakes and there word isnt god.
    I think we all realise this. In fact, even though I have seen no data whatsoever to support your position regarding break in, and even though I have seen nothing more than anecdotes and repetitive statements that are not IMO supported, I was among the first here to speak out against SOA's stance on the oil change interval. It has no place in the 21st century and is an embarrassment, particularly to a company that would, I suspect, like to be seen as technologically progressive. It's shameful.

    What remains a question is why one would preferentially follow the break in advice of someone that has built several orders of magnitude less motors than Subaru, and has by definition designed and supported no Subaru motors. Subaru do not need to be infallible to have more credibility; all they need is more experience, better resources, more people, and better infrastructure. They have all that.

    (As I type all this I'm praying I don't mess up another post in the thread with a wild edit!...).
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd92677 View Post
    As far as the Subaru went, when I got rid of it, it burned no oil and got better mileage than my WRX does, somewhere near 30mpg highway. Also I broke in my GSXR the same way... 115k miles and counting (0 oil consumption). The way I see it and I've said this to everyone that has their own break in procedures... And no offense is intended but why would I believe that you, who has built, worked on, or taken apart 100 engines? 1000?, have more knowledge than a company that spends millions (billions?) of dollars on R&D and has built millions of engines, then supports them through a warranty? I don't know but I would say that Subaru is the expert on how to properly break-in a Subaru. But to each his own I suppose. I'll be enjoying mine for the next 250k miles
    as stated before by me and others its a legal issue. plus your not just breaking in a motor, you also have a tranny, clutch, rotors and pads to think about. these require a different break-in. your average person doesnt get this. please read all the past posts as these questions have already been answered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    (As I type all this I'm praying I don't mess up another post in the thread with a wild edit!...).
    i know you and i have talked about this before. i know we agree on some and you do see what ive been through at work and with my own things and thats fine. im not telling anyone what they should do. its a forum and im giving personal testimonies. When it comes down to the topic at hand (quick oil change), ive seen motors with 20 miles up to 1000. Metal is metal in the oil coming from a new motor. Subi uses 3 or 4 oil screens throughout and an oil filter. While the filter gets changed, the screens never do!! This over time can be a problem as subi said and moved the oil change interval. There are plenty of people on nasioc and youd think enough people here would of come across the pics of the clogged dirty screens. This isnt rocket science. The work and proof is out there. And I only brought up Ph.Ds because it was brought up to me. No need to quote me and pick apart what I said when it was DBYA RX I was trying to make a point to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    i know you and i have talked about this before.
    Yes. I enjoyed it.

    i know we agree on some and you do see what ive been through at work and with my own things and thats fine. im not telling anyone what they should do. its a forum and im giving personal testimonies. When it comes down to the topic at hand (quick oil change), ive seen motors with 20 miles up to 1000. Metal is metal in the oil coming from a new motor. Subi uses 3 or 4 oil screens throughout and an oil filter. While the filter gets changed, the screens never do!!
    I agree about the screens. In fact, I can't help but wonder if some of the failures that motor "builders" have experienced, particularly with the 2.5L units they assemble from base units into which Subaru had fitted screens, have at least some problems attributable to the screens. I mentioned this in the TSB thread at one point, and still wonder if the privateer motor assemblers add expensive unauthorized parts, clean up the exterior, and just leave the screens in there either because they don't realise this might be an issue or because they don't care etc.

    No need to quote me and pick apart what I said when it was DBYA RX I was trying to make a point to.
    I go crazy with the quote stuff inevitably, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    ill have to search around for a 140 miles analysis for you.
    Without that, I'm sorry, but your argument is worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    a braze is not a weld. they take the two bolt flange and braze it to the pickup tube by heating the parent metal and letting the braze material melt and make a so called "weld." its cheap but they fail.
    I'm sorry, but a well-done braze weld is as solid as things get. A poorly done braze weld is just that, poor. Any braze weld done at a major factory will be good. They key to brazing is a clean joint, which the factory can guarantee. Yes, a TIG or MIG weld is stronger, but those are a different type of joint. Where a braze weld is used at the factory, it's used for a reason. Please provide evidence why a factory braze weld is poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    some how i think you were being sarcastic but only trying to point out what many others already know.

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    I'm not sure what you're trying to point out by this.

    Everything you've said so far is opinion. I respect your opinion, but without evidence, it's just your opinion. I have my opinion too, and many high performance highly modified cars to back it up, and lots of mechanical expertise. I've designed panels for the AH-64 Apache totally from scratch with zero input from anybody in the helicopter world. If you'd like to discuss my mechanical credentials and doubt them, you're going to the wrong place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    as stated before by me and others its a legal issue.
    Yes I've heard this argument before, it's silly and I'll end with this... If it was a legal issue, why would they put anything in the manual about break-in? Why not just let owners drive their cars as they please from the beginning? They don't say drive it easy for 1000 miles then drive the hell out of it and make sure you redline it every day. They specifically say how to drive the car for the first 1000 miles. So do you not agree with breaking in the trans, clutch, and brakes as well? According to your procedure that's not being done either. And we're not talking about the average person as you state, we're talking about the manufacturer of the car you bought. I don't know how I keep getting sucked into this argument, it's so silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teflon_jones View Post
    Without that, I'm sorry, but your argument is worthless.

    I'm sorry, but a well-done braze weld is as solid as things get. A poorly done braze weld is just that, poor. Any braze weld done at a major factory will be good. They key to brazing is a clean joint, which the factory can guarantee. Yes, a TIG or MIG weld is stronger, but those are a different type of joint. Where a braze weld is used at the factory, it's used for a reason. Please provide evidence why a factory braze weld is poor.


    I'm not sure what you're trying to point out by this.

    Everything you've said so far is opinion. I respect your opinion, but without evidence, it's just your opinion. I have my opinion too, and many high performance highly modified cars to back it up, and lots of mechanical expertise. I've designed panels for the AH-64 Apache totally from scratch with zero input from anybody in the helicopter world. If you'd like to discuss my mechanical credentials and doubt them, you're going to the wrong place.
    OOO tough guy look out!!! id go there but clearly you wont listen. sorry i pointed out hundreds of known pickup problems with pictures as evidence but clearly {EDITED OUT OFFENSIVE PERSONAL ATTACK} i was using the brazed pickups as an example that somethings need done as a safety issue beyond what subi tells you. LIKE a faster first oil change!! and great you pointed out the filter catches things before it goes through the motor. yet theres a beginning and an end to the oil system. and in that system there are 3 oil screens that can also become clogged over time and catch metal shavings when the engine is new. thoughs shavings will stay there forever. and as the motor gets older and older and you forget an oil change here and there, the screens over time could become clogged enough for something to break. thats why you change the oil sooner when new, when the most shavings will occur and change often like subi now tells you to do under 3750. the filter isnt in thoughs 3 spots. therefore the filter will only catch what the screens have let through. unfortunately the screens are super super tiny and you first metal shavings can get caught in the screens. just one more EXAMPLE why you should change sooner.
    Last edited by TheJ; 01-09-2011 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Attack arguments not people

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    Quote Originally Posted by jd92677 View Post
    Yes I've heard this argument before, it's silly and I'll end with this... If it was a legal issue, why would they put anything in the manual about break-in? Why not just let owners drive their cars as they please from the beginning? They don't say drive it easy for 1000 miles then drive the hell out of it and make sure you redline it every day. They specifically say how to drive the car for the first 1000 miles. So do you not agree with breaking in the trans, clutch, and brakes as well? According to your procedure that's not being done either. And we're not talking about the average person as you state, we're talking about the manufacturer of the car you bought. I don't know how I keep getting sucked into this argument, it's so silly.
    your kidding right? do you know anything about law? do you not remember the lady that burned herself by McDonalds coffee because it was HOT?? and she WON!!!! so guess what? as a legal issue their lids say CAUTION HOT now! if there was no break-in and young 18 year old kid was doing 70mph in 2nd gear banging the car off redline, blew the motor, spilt oil on the road and on his wheels, killed himself and others that hit his oil, guess who people could and would try to sue first?? as long as they say it they cant lose in a court of law.

    and when did i ever say redline the car the first 1000k? if you want to everyday after then so be it. if you want to autox or road race then so be it. we're only talking break-in here. if i recall im the one that said the motor, tranny, rotors and pads all need a different break-in. thats why subi says take it easy for 1000k!!! if they said do a hard break-in, the average person doesnt get what that means. a kid would nail every gear to redline, be doing 100mph and then have to stomp hard on the breaks because of a deer or car or whatever. now he just screwed his clutch, rotors and pads. ive already said this. im not sure how im getting sucked into saying the same things over and over.

    this is pretty simple, try to keep up kiddo.

    your rotors, pads, tranny, clutch, flywheel all need an easy break-in. that means no fast shifting, no shifting above like 4000 rpm, and no hard breaking etc!!

    now your motor, there is nothing wrong with a 2nd or 3rd gear pull at WOT to 4000-5000RPM, let the motor engine break in that gear back down to 2000rpm and repeat. your not using the breaks, your not using the engaged clutch, and your not using the tranny gears or syncros. this allows the rings to flex, scare the cylinder walls and break-in the motor properly so the rings seat. end of story! if subi says dont go over 4k for 1000 miles then fine. but pick 2nd or 3rd gear and do some WOT runs to 4k so the rings flex. BOOM, you did what subi told you to do.
    Last edited by synolimit; 01-08-2011 at 10:23 PM.

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