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This is a discussion on Break in? within the General Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Accidents. forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; data is in the people’s hands that have tore apart motors and seen the leaking pistons, the oil consumption and ...

  1. #16
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    data is in the people’s hands that have tore apart motors and seen the leaking pistons, the oil consumption and the blow by everywhere.
    What causes these faults -- following the manufacturer's break-in procedure? Again, where are the data?

    its just common sense when you talk to builders about this stuff.
    What does a builder do? What builder has designed, manufactured, and supported more motors than Subaru? How valuable is less experience compared to more?

    when you tear down your own motor and see how your break in worked, you know.
    At best one can learn about that specific motor. To get a meaningful idea of what a process will do to a motor, isn't sample size important? Wouldn't having to design and test and support, say, 100.000 motors provide more insight than tearing down one, or ten, or 1.000? Who's built and supported 100.000 or more motors?... Subaru.

    all i said was dont follow the manual, "the way people imply it."
    I understand, I think, what point you are making -- and if I don't, I am in no way saying that's anyone's fault but my own. I just don't see a justification since everyone's collective experiences are still going to pale in comparison to those of the manufacturer.

    The last part of the assembly line is your car on a dyno doing full redline runs, well above the 4000 rpm limit wonder why that is??
    No. I don't have to. They're working for the people most experienced with those motors. If I had one of those motors, I'd follow their directions instead. It is likely their directions will be similar to those given by Subaru, isn't it?
    Last edited by SD_GR; 12-15-2010 at 06:41 PM.

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    is there a reason why your posting under my name? never mind.

    let me just sum all this up.

    your motor has seen redline before you even get the car! its a fact. its why all cars have 6-8 miles on them before they even step off the truck at the dealer. and dont think your car drove around the factory, off the boat, and onto a truck for your dealer doing that many miles. it was on a dyno checking everything out. furthering the break-in for about 20 miles finishes everything up! i like to think its about 100-200 miles total and its done.

    subi can not tell you this however. there is to much red tape and lets face it people are stupid!! if they told you to give it a harder break-in people would go nuts and kill themselves! the other HUGE thing is there are other items on the car that DO need a 1000 mile break-in. like clutch and rotors. people dont know how to break one thing in hard but then be gental on another. by just saying stay under 4k for 1000 miles it keeps them out of court. imagine an 18 yr old kid giving his car a harder break-in if subi told him too. 1. he'd probable crash into a tree then sue or 2. he's doing 120 mph nailing every gear hard as can be and then a deer runs out in front of him and he slams 100% on the breaks. he now pretty much destroyed his clutch and rotors.

    so back to my posts i first posted. motoman doesnt say nail every gear or shift fast as possible. just load the motor for a few miles being safe at speed and dont shift, keep it in one gear and you'll be done. after 100-200 miles continue to be easy on the brakes and clutch.
    Last edited by synolimit; 12-15-2010 at 07:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    No excuse, I'm very sorry. I sent you a PM.

    I edited YOUR post accidentally! Again, very sorry! I will try to somehow fix it. I didn't see what was happening and with the new forum format, I made a mess. This is no way is meant to insult or deprecate your points, and I appreciate your posts. Please accept my apologies and let me see what I can do.

    SD
    its ok, here is what i wrote

    data is in the people’s hands that have tore apart motors and seen the leaking pistons, the oil consumption and the blow by everywhere. its just common sense when you talk to builders about this stuff. when you tear down your own motor and see how your break in worked, you know.

    im not saying beat the crap out of your motor and neither did the posts i provided! a 4th gear pull at WOT to 4000rpm starting from 2000rpm or as motoman said "65-75 MPH" is enough! its provides enough of a load to seat the pistons. end of story. so there, you didn’t exceed the 4000rpm limit but you did what you were supposed to do.

    when people follow the manual they are babying the crap out of the car. they are getting to 4000rpm in 10 minutes. none of the posts said kill your motor and im not either. all i said was dont follow the manual, "the way people imply it."

    and just a little FYI watch any history channel show about a manufacture and them making a Gold Wing, or Audi or BMW. The last part of the assembly line is your car on a dyno doing full redline runs, well above the 4000 rpm limit wonder why that is??

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    My sincere thanks for re-posting that and for helping others and participating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    so you will have your car 200K miles and are ok with poorer performance, gas mileage and oil consumption? Also your car is bone stock right? I mean why would you put anything else on it otherwise, subi knows best right? Cause I think they do! I love that they put glass trannies in 02-07 wrx’s. I love that they keep putting in crappy cast pistons that break ringlands. I love that they put bad bearings in 08 and 09 wrxs and blow tons of motors. And last I love that they put in crappy tunes just to stay legal EPA wise and run 14.5 AFR at WOT till about 3500-4000RPM. Yeaaa for subi knows best!
    I have 115k to go til I get to 200k...how do you know my car will have those issues? You don't. You make no sense to me man.

    The transmissions have held up fine for MOST people. And the majority of people who have destroyed their transmissions either launched, banged gears around, or added power to the car. Subaru didn't build the cars with the intent that everyone is going to go stage 2 or more. They built a car to be reliable (in most cases they are, nobody can argue that) and have more than enough power to get someone around safely. If you want more power, that's why they built the STI...get one of those.

    So they built a handful of engines that spin bearings...what manufacturer hasn't built something that can come into an issue? Toyota almost killed millions of people because of screwed up floor mats...doesn't mean that you should never listen to them again...doesn't mean that all their cars are terrible...

    ...and you think there's something wrong with Subaru trying to keep within EPA regulations? If that bothers you then thats why catless DPs are made. Maybe Subaru should have gone catless from the start...but I can't deny a ****ty tune...my 07 STI had it...I had the **** AFRs and the lean spots under WOT. But Subaru offered reflashes for that. I personally had my car protuned to handle the issue but thats me. The average car owner wouldn't know what a protune is or would be capable of. Thats what Subaru is going for by making a generalized break-in period...for the average Joe who won't be tracking the car or racing, or adding countless aftermarket parts. We are only a small percentage of Subaru buyers...

    ...I don't know what else to say...this makes my head numb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    I have 115k to go til I get to 200k...how do you know my car will have those issues? You don't. You make no sense to me man.
    no you just choose not to listen or agree, whatever. i for one would never have a car more then 60k. i have a new car every year, year and a half. as for knowing if you'll have thoughs problems or not, i dont. math on the other hand tells me you will. as a % of most high mileage cars do have them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    The transmissions have held up fine for MOST people. And the majority of people who have destroyed their transmissions either launched, banged gears around, or added power to the car. Subaru didn't build the cars with the intent that everyone is going to go stage 2 or more. They built a car to be reliable (in most cases they are, nobody can argue that) and have more than enough power to get someone around safely. If you want more power, that's why they built the STI...get one of those.
    now your just arguing to argue. point was subi doesnt know everything and they make mistakes. therefore not everything subi says or does means there all knowing gods. plenty have broken stock trannys as well as stage 2 so dont say its a power thing. as for getting an STI for just more power, know thanks, 400TQ on my tranny suits me just fine, plus i dont have a ringland issue stock or stage whatever

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    So they built a handful of engines that spin bearings...what manufacturer hasn't built something that can come into an issue? Toyota almost killed millions of people because of screwed up floor mats...doesn't mean that you should never listen to them again...doesn't mean that all their cars are terrible...
    i dont disagree! and i never said there terrible. they are pretty cheap pieced together tin cans but there an ok car. once again there not gods, you can listen to other people. like professionals that have built 1000's of race motors and know whats best. we arnt here for stock motors and such. we are taking it to a higher performance levels therefore OEM guidelines kinda go out the window when your going up 100HP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    ...and you think there's something wrong with Subaru trying to keep within EPA regulations? If that bothers you then thats why catless DPs are made. Maybe Subaru should have gone catless from the start...but I can't deny a ****ty tune...my 07 STI had it...I had the **** AFRs and the lean spots under WOT. But Subaru offered reflashes for that. I personally had my car protuned to handle the issue but thats me. The average car owner wouldn't know what a protune is or would be capable of. Thats what Subaru is going for by making a generalized break-in period...for the average Joe who won't be tracking the car or racing, or adding countless aftermarket parts. We are only a small percentage of Subaru buyers...
    your screwy if you think running that unsafe of a AFR is ok. no tuner on the planet would allow that to happen. will your car blow up stock? not likely because its pulling tons of timing out. so now you have 200 crank HP instead of 265. who wants that? all there doing is flexing there muscles and showing off branging numbers. for them to say they have 265HP and 305HP they need to turn up the boost. but to stay legal they run the motor lean. thats my problem. why not run 10PSI and 200 crank HP with running a little richer and safer and still staying EPA friendly? they dont because they want to show off there car and run them lean and rely on the knock sensor to take care of things.

    everything else you said last i agree with. ***** tune so get it fixed. well a stock tune to me is also like the stock break-in. i dont follow either. and i agree we are a very small Subi %. however your on WRX website. therefore the % here and the % of people reading this that will Mod their car is about 100%.

    if you mod, plan and simple, you shouldnt follow exact guidelines. and ive already said that and how to do it in past posts.
    Last edited by synolimit; 12-16-2010 at 03:10 PM.

  9. #23
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    no you just choose not to listen or agree, whatever. i for one would never have a car more then 60k. i have a new car every year, year and a half. as for knowing if you'll have thoughs problems or not, i dont. math on the other hand tells me you will. as a % of most high mileage cars do have them.
    now your just arguing to argue. point was subi doesnt know everything and they make mistakes. therefore not everything subi says or does means there all knowing gods. plenty have broken stock trannys as well as stage 2 so dont say its a power thing. as for getting an STI for just more power, know thanks, 400TQ on my tranny suits me just fine, plus i dont have a ringland issue stock or stage whatever
    i dont disagree! and i never said there terrible. they are pretty cheap pieced together tin cans but there an ok car. once again there not gods, you can listen to other people. like professionals that have built 1000's of race motors and know whats best. we arnt here for stock motors and such. we are taking it to a higher performance levels therefore OEM guidelines kinda go out the window when your going up 100HP.
    your screwy if you think running that unsafe of a AFR is ok. no tuner on the planet would allow that to happen. will your car blow up stock? not likely because its pulling tons of timing out. so now you have 200 crank HP instead of 265. who wants that? all there doing is flexing there muscles and showing off branging numbers. for them to say they have 265HP and 305HP they need to turn up the boost. but to stay legal they run the motor lean. thats my problem. why not run 10PSI and 200 crank HP with running a little richer and safer and still staying EPA friendly? they dont because they want to show off there car and run them lean and rely on the knock sensor to take care of things.
    everything else you said last i agree with. ***** tune so get it fixed. well a stock tune to me is also like the stock break-in. i dont follow either. and i agree we are a very small Subi %. however your on WRX website. therefore the % here and the % of people reading this that will Mod their car is about 100%.

    if you mod, plan and simple, you shouldnt follow exact guidelines. and ive already said that and how to do it in past posts.

    I've built a great many internal combustion engines for various forms of racing and recreation as well as set up and tuned the engine management for those projects.

    based on my hard learned experience the more you post the less I think of you.. and your tuner.

    the senseless bs you spout about a/f ratios/boost and what subaru's stance is on it really pushes me to think you have no Idea what you're talking about.

    You can afford to snag a new car every year/year n half? something with that statement sounds fishy to me....... especially so since if thats true you could just buy something that already does what you want without having to fk with it.

    Instead you're messing around with a car that otherwise works perfectly fine for what it is and then spouting off to the fellow owners that the engineers that built it didn't know ****. In some circles that would make you an *******. ... just sayin...

    Secondly, are you an engineer? if not, I say sit back and shut up unless you can literally build a car from the ground up from scratch yourself and have it work just as well. I doubt you could, especially since most of your posts suggest that you have to pay someone to do the actual tuning on YOUR car.

    It seems to me you're also discounting all the reputable tuners that have dyno'd factory cars and found the car to produce MORE power than rated. UNTOUCHED cars.. no changes. hmm... so how's that possible? ooooohhhhh yeahh.. subaru flexing muscles while marketing a ulev compliant vehicle. Especially given the conditions that oem engineers have to work within to produce a car that does what the wrx does AND keep it in a price point that matches the target demographic.

    I could go deeply into details of why they set up the management the way they did relating to emissions, timing and afr .. and why the way they did it though scary is completely safe.. but you're either too simple to understand or too arrogant to care. Either way its a waste of text.
    Last edited by mangostick; 12-16-2010 at 07:13 PM. Reason: my spelling is terrible, though not as bad as the quoted poster......
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    This is ridiculous. Unsubscribed.

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    Break in your car as you want, it's your car, just do us all a favor... when you post in general maintenence/troubleshooting that you're burning oil, low compression, CEL on, things like that, please add that you felt that the billions of dollars that Subaru spent in R & D and the million upon millions of engines they have built in their 60+ years were a waste of their time, because you know better than they do. That way, people like myself, on here to help people and maybe give some helpful advice, will ignore you This is rediculous

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    Quote Originally Posted by synolimit View Post
    so you will have your car 200K miles and are ok with poorer performance, gas mileage and oil consumption? Also your car is bone stock right? I mean why would you put anything else on it otherwise, subi knows best right? Cause I think they do! I love that they put glass trannies in 02-07 wrx’s. I love that they keep putting in crappy cast pistons that break ringlands. I love that they put bad bearings in 08 and 09 wrxs and blow tons of motors. And last I love that they put in crappy tunes just to stay legal EPA wise and run 14.5 AFR at WOT till about 3500-4000RPM. Yeaaa for subi knows best!
    I've followed break in recommendations from the manufacturer for every new car I've owned (and I've had 10 new cars over the past 45 years). I've never had one that used any excessive amount of oil. All the oil burners that I've owned were vehicles broken in by who knows who and in what way??? So, personally, I follow the manufacturer's advice, based on a sample size of 17 vehicles (10 new; 7 used.)

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    I don't purport to be any kind of auto mechanic, but in my experience with a Honda s2k and rsx type s (both of which I broke in extremely hard) I found that my car, bone stock, was typically faster than my buddy's bone stock (comparing s2k to s2k and rsx to rsx of course) when we raced off of a roll. Also, I had two friends with EVO's when I had my s2k (both EVO IXs) and the one who broke his in hard broke me off when we raced off of a roll and the one who followed the mfger's suggestions pulled away slowly...Again, these are just my experiences and I'm not saying that these results are definitive in any way, but I just got my WRX and I've been driving hard...What I do know (as a soon to be attorney in law school) is that the manufacturer will NEVER tell you to break in the vehicle hard, even it was the best thing for it...why would they? In case some shmuck decides to take it to red line in 1st gear and bounce it off the rev limiter for an hour till it blows and come back and say, "well it said to break it in hard"...no way...to me, it sounds like Synolimit is the more credible source, even if he didn't give a link to back up his argument...but if you're really worried, breaking it in gently definitely won't hurt so just do that...but don't be surprised if ur dyno numbers suffer as a result (assuming u will mod it

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2011WRXOBP View Post
    I don't purport to be any kind of auto mechanic, but in my experience with a Honda s2k and rsx type s (both of which I broke in extremely hard) I found that my car, bone stock, was typically faster than my buddy's bone stock (comparing s2k to s2k and rsx to rsx of course) when we raced off of a roll. Also, I had two friends with EVO's when I had my s2k (both EVO IXs) and the one who broke his in hard broke me off when we raced off of a roll and the one who followed the mfger's suggestions pulled away slowly...Again, these are just my experiences and I'm not saying that these results are definitive in any way, but I just got my WRX and I've been driving hard...What I do know (as a soon to be attorney in law school) is that the manufacturer will NEVER tell you to break in the vehicle hard, even it was the best thing for it...why would they? In case some shmuck decides to take it to red line in 1st gear and bounce it off the rev limiter for an hour till it blows and come back and say, "well it said to break it in hard"...no way...to me, it sounds like Synolimit is the more credible source, even if he didn't give a link to back up his argument...but if you're really worried, breaking it in gently definitely won't hurt so just do that...but don't be surprised if ur dyno numbers suffer as a result (assuming u will mod it
    i really really really dont want to keep arguing but this is what i was trying to get across. you kinda hit all the points. like pushing the motor a little harder is good for power. on my race bikes my dyno numbers show that vs. friends with same bike and easy break-in. but Subi cant tell you that because of the the "shmucks." and like i said before they cant tell you hard break-in because shmucks cant tell the difference. like you talking about the 1st gear redline light, while the motor will like to be pushed a little, the clutch is going to HATE that when its new! people dont put the two and two together. so its better to just tell everyone 1k take it easy. i appologize for the first post coming off harsh by not explaining further, instead i just said dont do what they say. my bad.

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    This argument was difficult to sift through but I'm glad it happened. I came to this forum to learn break in procedures and I now know what I'm going to do.

    Thanks for the wiki link

    PS 1st post!

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