>>Tranny Fluid Info and Experimenting Thread<< (Amsoil, Redline, USC, etc.)

[06wrx4me]

UPDATE:

To start off, a link to " MEMBER TESTIMONIALS (on page 2 of this thread)" where there are tons of testimonials and lots to read.

What I ended up running and install pics. >>>>HERE on page 4<<<<

MY Blackstone analysis of my USC fluid that I replaced. >>>HERE<<<

Also started a "What fluid was your car running when it blew?" thread.

One more link to the Uncle Scotty's Cocktail Thread on Nasioc.

With that said where I started at 1-30-08:

So it is once again tranny fluid time in my car, or getting close anyways. Last time I used a synthetic version of USC or "Uncle Scottys Cocktail" I came up with. It works great, but in my quest to not leave well enough alone and brand homogeneity, I wanna try an all Amsoil formulation. Specifically, replace the Frankenstein colored Redline Lightweight shockproof with something, but we'll see where the research and findings take me.

What I am currently running:

I mixed up a batch of "Uncle Scottys Cocktail" but a full synthetic version in my 06 TR at 15k miles.

1 qt Redline lightweight shockproof
1 qt Amsoil syncromesh
2 qt Amsoil 75w90 gear oil.

What I am thinking about going with:

4 0z Amsoil slip lock
1 qt Amsoil MTG
1 qt Amsoil syncromesh
1.5 qt Amsoil 75w90 gear oil.

The bold is what I am thinking about to replace the Lightweight shockproof. They have a lower kinematic viscosity at 40 deg which should lead to improved shift at cold temps. Using all Amsoil products also guarantees (through Amsoil) that I can up the service interval considerably.



Discuss.

Here are the results:

Now at page 24 we have come to some conclusions:

* We've decided Uncle Scotty's cocktail shifts nice for a while but breaks down really fast and needs really short change intervals.
--Also don't think syncromesh needs to be in the blend
--There is also concern it may cause extra wear

* Redline Lightweight Shockproof works well in the 5MT but not the STI trans (slinger lubrication versus pump)
--Seems to work just as well straight as mixed

* Straight Severe Gear 75w90 from Amsoil is not good in cold weather, but works well when mixed with shockproof

* SD_GR still loves his Valvoline conventional 75w90

* Subaru Extra S is the greatest gear oil to put in a stock Subaru
--It works well for a long time, shifts great, but is not sold in the quart. Its sold in the 5 gal drum, but many Subi tuners and dealer have it

FWIW Redline 75w90NS is what you'd run in the 5MT, but in non-mixed form it hasn't netted near the result of the Extra-S. Don't use MT90.

[SD_GR]

This is interesting. I don't know much about the demands of a gearbox on lubes, but it seems the wear items will be mainly the syncros and gears themselves (let's leave any other components aside unless someone sees a disaster coming). You should be able to tell how the syncros like it just by shifting.

Assuming you go for it, you'd have no way to know the effect on the gears themselves unless you stuck with it and looked for bits or sent off a sample (I don't know if Blackstone does gear lube analysis). Plus, what's a "normal" sludge after a gear oil change vs. an abnormal sludge due to increased wear? I don't know.

Given all that, if you do try it, my advice is to pay attention to shifting and also to whine, and either way I'd actually not listen to Amsoil, I'd keep shorter intervals than they recommend just to be safe.

Amsoil are good with questions. Have you considered using whatever product combination they recommend instead of the Uncle's mix with substitutes?

BTW, how may miles on the previous full-synth cocktail?

[06wrx4me]

I have not contacted Amsoil, but now that you mention it I think I will, although I fear I will get an android on the phone who replies with only "Use 75w90 Severe Gear." Hopefully i can talk to a lubrication engineer.

I have just over 17k miles on the previous cocktail, and while the "color " seems to be fine, based on "Uncle Scotty's" recommendations and my own OCD habit of shorter maintenance intervals, I'm considering a routine fluid swap.

The transmission has loved the old concoction and still shifts more smoothly than stock.

My main reasons for wanting to stray from the USC:

1. is for research for Subi members benefit (buying all ingrediants from one MFG is a lot easier, as currently you need to hunt all over town to find them)

2. Possibly further improve on the cocktail.

3. Help dispel the "glass tranny" rumor by making mine live at elevated power levels.

4. Get rid of the dead warranty voiding giveaway of the Frankenstein blue fluid color.

5. Further improve shifting/reduce whine at start up temps over USC. (Redline Lightweight shockproof has a kinematic viscosity similar to 75w140.)

[06wrx4me]

I spoke with a lubrication engineer over at Amsoil after getting the typical drone canned corporate response from the technician. The Engineer was very knowledgeable and helpful. He had concerns about mixing different fluids, even those within their catalog. After explaining the USC cocktail to him and my take on it and its performance, he explained that a 20k-30k mile service interval would be recommended for it maximum. The reason being is that specifically the Syncromesh fluid (5w30) is Engine oil based as are its additives and they conflict with the SVG 75w90 additives and cause them to degrade quicker. After explaining to him the above results I wanted to achieve, we came up with a formulation that he believes will be very effective and its simple.

3 qts MTG 75w 90 gear oil
8 oz Amsoil slip lock

The MTG has the same high heat protection as the SVG 75w90, but has less friction additives so requires more slip lock. The MTG is also 30&#37; thinner than the SVG in cold weather despite their similar rating.

He also urged I test the USC (have it analyzed) for Science sake. Both Amsoil and Blackstone labs offer testing services for a fee.

Amsoil kit/testing fee is $26. Blackstones fee is $22.50.

Blackstone it is.

Before I swap the fluid I believe I will give Redline a call and see what their take on the situation is.

[Racenut]

I wish I had never messed with synthetics in the tranny. Shifted fine, any gear, any speed before I tried synthetic. It's never been the same since.

My advice? Stick to 75w90 Dino oil and save your self headache and money.

[SD_GR]

He had concerns about mixing different fluids, even those within their catalog.

Not surprising. Many gearbox makers warn against mixing, including Subaru in my 02 user's manual.

After explaining the USC cocktail to him and my take on it and its performance, he explained that a 20k-30k mile service interval would be recommended for it minimum.

Do you mean maximum -- as in, don't let it go past 20K or 30K? That'd match what Uncle posted at one point too. Very interesting!

I'm heading over to Amsoil's site to look at their verbage. Nice detective work there, great info you've uncovered!

EDIT: I see the MTG is listed as GL4 and MT-1. I thought MT-1 was a GL5 that's safe for yellow metals in manual transmissions (hence the MT). I did not know a GL4 could be MT-1. Did he mention whether it's GL5? (I'm assuming he knew you "need" a GL5).

[06wrx4me]

I wish I had never messed with synthetics in the tranny. Shifted fine, any gear, any speed before I tried synthetic. It's never been the same since.

My advice? Stick to 75w90 Dino oil and save your self headache and money.

My car came with Dino 75w 90 and shifted mediocre at best. Other than my worry of mixing, I have nothing but great things to say about the USC.

Do you mean maximum -- as in, don't let it go past 20K or 30K? That'd match what Uncle posted at one point too. Very interesting!

Yes no more than 20k-30k miles. Of which I am getting close to 20k miles.

EDIT: I see the MTG is listed as GL4 and MT-1. I thought MT-1 was a GL5 that's safe for yellow metals in manual transmissions (hence the MT). I did not know a GL4 could be MT-1. Did he mention whether it's GL5? (I'm assuming he knew you "need" a GL5).

Yes he said even though its rated at a GL4 it technically could be a GL5 but for some reason (maybe time of release) has not been upgraded to a GL5 rating, and he elaborated on rating scales and further explained why it met Gl5 of which I can't remember off hand. But yes I told him it needed GL5 and he also knew from experience (he was a gearhead too and spoke of his Factory 5 MK3 Cobra kit car) and assured me it was the right stuff.

[SD_GR]

OK good to know, I figured the MT-1 had Subarus "covered" in a way.

[06wrx4me]

Amsoil = Redline = Mobil1 = Valvoline = Royal Purple

MTG 75w90 = 75w90NS

SVG 75w90 = 75w90 = LS75w90 = Synpower 75w90 = Max Gear

Slip Lock = Limited slip friction modifier



I still dunno what Redline Lightweight Shockproof = ? And without fluid property listings similar to amsoil, its hard to find out. It appears from what little literature they have available that it performs slightly better than their 75w90 under normal circumstances but really outperforms it in a shock load situation. * see pdf on redlines website for graph. Edit: on page 2 of the PDF it shows Lightweight shockproof as being GL5

Edit: After extensive web testimonials (Nasioc, Forrester forums, random DSM sites) it appears most people rave about running solely the lightweight shockproof in the Subaru 5MT. The Redline website seems to be rather vague or with holding on applications or crossovers for the Shockproof. I see no OEM or API ratings listed anywhere.

Verbage that intrigues me
From redlineoil.com:

ShockProof&#174; products work in a variety of differential and transmissions...-these fluids are designed wet sump or splash type lubrication.

A unique gear oil designed to lubricate racing transmissions and transaxles which see serious loads (not recommended for most syncro-type transmissions). It has excellent low-temperature flow which allows easier shifting when cold.

Red Line Synthetic ShockProof™ Gear Oil provides
unequalled protection for high-performance differentials
and transmissions which are heavily loaded or which see
shock-loading.

Red Line ShockProof™ can be
used in conventional, limited-slip, or locker differentials.
Red Line ShockProof™ is designed for use in
competition differentials and transmissions.

I shall call Redline tomorrow and get their advice.

[rr1911]

so which one are you using right now ?

1 qt Redline lightweight shockproof
1 qt Amsoil syncromesh
2 qt Amsoil 75w90 gear oil.

or

4 0z Amsoil slip lock
1 qt Amsoil MTG
1 qt Amsoil syncromesh
1.5 qt Amsoil 75w90 gear oil.

[06wrx4me]

1 qt Redline lightweight shockproof
1 qt Amsoil syncromesh
2 qt Amsoil 75w90 gear oil.

That one.

[rr1911]

That one.

ok so your using (SVG) and not (MTG)

what are your thoughts on what he recommended...3 qts MTG 75w 90 gear oil + 8 oz Amsoil slip lock ?

[SD_GR]

Edit: After extensive web testimonials (Nasioc, Forrester forums, random DSM sites) it appears most people rave about running solely the lightweight shockproof in the Subaru 5MT. The Redline website seems to be rather vague or with holding on applications or crossovers for the Shockproof. I see no OEM or API raings listed anywhere.

I've seen talk of this too. What's made me hesitate is that some of the recommendations come from rallyists, and their needs are quite different than road car drivers. I've also seen mention of 50:50 lightweight shockproof and 75W90 (NS, I believe). The mixture seems more reasonable to me but there's no rational reason for it, just a feeling.

[06wrx4me]

ok so your using (SVG) and not (MTG)

what are your thoughts on what he recommended...3 qts MTG 75w 90 gear oil + 8 oz Amsoil slip lock ?

I'm semi Skeptical at this point. I think it would work perfectly in the 6MT but may be lacking in the 5MT.

Technically I am currently running a similar mixture with the addition of the Redline Lightweight Shockproof. As listed above, I have found a lot of positive reviews for the redline lightweight shockproof in the 5mt. It will be interesting to see what Redline recommends tomorrow.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The STI 6MT has an oil pump inside the transmission for lubrication. Redline strictly recommends against using shockproof in that configuration. So does Uncle Scotty.

I also ordered my Blackstone labs kit, so in about a month we'll have some spectro. data on the USC.

[rr1911]

I'm semi Skeptical at this point. I think it would work perfectly in the 6MT but may be lacking in the 5MT.

Technically I am currently running a similar mixture with the addition of the Redline Lightweight Shockproof. As listed above, I have found a lot of positive reviews for the redline lightweight shockproof in the 5mt. It will be interesting to see what Redline recommends tomorrow.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The STI 6MT has an oil pump inside the transmission for lubrication. Redline strictly recommends against using shockproof in that configuration. So does Uncle Scotty.


I also ordered my Blackstone labs kit, so in about a month we'll have some spectro. data on the USC.

ok cool let us know