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This is a discussion on Finally Switched to Synthetic within the General Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Accidents. forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; you don't have to believe me. i've only worked in the automotive undustry for 10 years. but honeslty guys, motor ...

  1. #16
    Banned dark_rex's Avatar
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    you guys are nuts.

    you don't have to believe me. i've only worked in the automotive undustry for 10 years.

    but honeslty guys, motor oil cannot increase HP, idle you smoother, warm you up faster, or anything else, unlesee you were using a non conventional oil (like Wesson or something) or had an EXCESSIVE amount of time b/w changes, (like 25K miles) ti's a lubricant.

    ask any mechanic, tech or knowledgable auotmotive expert. it's no differnet than someone saying "because the butt dyno said i gained HP from my stickers, it must have!" what ever you are feeling, its MENTAL.

    dR

    and i resent that negative remark weapon! wrf?

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  3. #17
    Registered User Natoforces's Avatar
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    Mr. Auto Expert

    Dark_rex - Working in the automotive industry does not make you an expert on other peoples experiences or anything else for that matter. I used to be a mechanic and have owned, worked on, and driven numerous cars in the last 30 years and am not arrogant enough to think I know so much as to challenge someone on an issue as subjective as this. Besides if you personally feel no difference that is fine, just don't dog the rest of us who are keen enough to notice a difference!

    What I do know is that unless you have some irrefutable proof to back up your comments, you have negated any credibility you think you may have had!

    By the way most "technicians" and mechanics I have spoken to over the past few years, are less schooled, less accurate, and less intelligent than the most knowledgeable people you find on these forums.

    Time for a reality check!

  4. #18
    Registered User NJSubieTech's Avatar
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    I have to agree with DR that most of the gains you feel from synthetic are mental. That said, I have even tricked myself to thinking that i felt them on occasion.

    There is research to support that synthetic oil tranfers heat better, so it might give you a tiny tiny gain in hp - maybe 1hp at 7000 rpm. Are you feeling it? No. Youre more likely to feel the gain from removing your resonator.

    In my car I use Mobile1 5W30 in the winter - and yes i still change it every 3000 miles. The additives and detergents are supposed to break down slower than petrol oils, but Im just old fasioned I guess....

    I seroiusly doubt that your engine is cranking easier due to synthetic oil. I can start an engine in two cranks with NO oil (but only if its under warranty )! The only thing that might POSSIBLY almost make it seem just a little faster is that youve put in an empty oil filter and so your oil pump isnt moving any oil for a crank or two, so its not loading the starter as much.

    As for the ignition deal - the fuel pump wil run for 3 seconds after you turn on your key to the "ON" position - then go for the crank.

    speed safely,

    Joe
    merlin916@aol.com
    "Damn.... this car is wicked fast..." ~ My roomate, owner of a supercharged/intercooled 97 Trans AM
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  5. #19
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    I think one of the main reasons for changing your oil often is the dirt, acid and other nasty stuff that ends up suspended in it. Synthetic or not, most oil will last longer than it is in an engine. Sure, temperature will get to it, and driving conditions dictate that. But when I worked for Nissan, I saw several vehicles that ran synthetic and cut down on their changes, they all ended up getting motor jobs. Moral of the story, pour in what you like, JUST FREEKING CHANGE IT OFTEN:




    DBut is there anyone out there other than me that feels that they have to change their oil, every 3000 miles still, even with synthetic oil? The only reason why I do it, is because for the last few oil changes, I have gone to the dragstrip, and redlined the car a bunch of times. Even with synthetic. I also feel that since a turbo motor runs so hot, and the oil may break down quicker, this is another reason why. I know synthetic shouldn't change its properties all that much or as quickly as dino oil, but I feel it is safe insurance to still change my oil every 3000 miles.
    Last edited by Lance; 01-17-2003 at 04:47 PM.

  6. #20
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    Synthetic Oil at start-up during the winter

    is easier. The other poster(s) is WRONG. The pour point for synthetics is much lower than dino oil. Giver the winter temperature in Mich., it should be significant. During warm-up, the engine should be smoother for the same reason.

    As far as the engine running goes after warm-up, you may get better gas mileage (only slightly) but that is about it. The advantages after warm-up are not apparent by your senses but are also significant at a microscopic level.

  7. #21
    Banned dark_rex's Avatar
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    sorry for the novel, but my reputation is now at stake.

    Originally posted by Natoforces
    Dark_rex - Working in the automotive industry does not make you an expert on other peoples experiences or anything else for that matter. Besides if you personally feel no difference that is fine, just don't dog the rest of us who are keen enough to notice a difference!

    What I do know is that unless you have some irrefutable proof to back up your comments, you have negated any credibility you think you may have had!

    By the way most "technicians" and mechanics I have spoken to over the past few years, are less schooled, less accurate, and less intelligent than the most knowledgeable people you find on these forums.
    i never claimed to be an expert, but as far as common knowledge and misconeptions, i'd expect more from a former mechanic. the basic physics of mechanical engineering here are enough to understand the questions on this thread. like i said, i compare this to the "butt dyno" personally important? sure. scientific? hardly.

    NJ subie tech's experience and reputation precedes himself on this forum and others as well as in the real world. i suggest you bend your ear to his comments as they fall directly in line with my personal reading and experience. he's well schooled and experienced.

    Originally posted by Natoforces
    it should be significant. During warm-up, the engine should be smoother for the same reason.
    did you just make that up? the viscosity rating of syn or dino oil is what determines how fast it will get out of the pan. any "smoothness" differences you are feeling is TIMING and MIX based, driven by the ECU to run differently in cold start conditions for emissions output. i think you might be mistaken here.

    Originally posted by keithja
    As far as the engine running goes after warm-up, you may get better gas mileage (only slightly) but that is about it. The advantages after warm-up are not apparent by your senses but are also significant at a microscopic level.
    gas mileage changing due to engine oil? you'vegot to be kidding. i've never heard such a thing, even from the pennzoil and mobil salesmen that have spoken at our seminars. these guys know their stuff, and i have been blessed with the opportunity to talk shop with them as well as MANY techs. if this is true, it is COMPLETE news to me.

    i am CERTAINLY not an expert on ANY level. infact, i don't even prefer to turn my own wrenches as i am not certified in ANY way. BUT on the book, product and information side, i would be VERY comfortable speaking on most issues, as i have helped mechanics and technicians find the right parts, install them, and process reviews and comments since i was old enough to stock seals and gaskets. if you doubt my knowledge, i would ask you to review my suggestionz, reputations and history on the board, or even contact me personally. i'd be more than happy to talk to you.

    email and pm are listed. feel free to call me at Stone Motor Parts on Saturdays. our hours are 8-3 EST. 617 923 1031 (i'm a real estate developer for the rest of the week.)

    dR
    Mike

  8. #22
    Registered User is2scooby's Avatar
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    I've heard claims of increased power and fuel efficiency due to lower frictional losses - however have not experienced them myself.

    I use synthetic motor oil only for it's quality, additive packages and ability to withstand high heat situations.

    Interesting opinions: http://www.fernblatt.com/longhurst/additives.html

    Pro Synthetic:
    http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/synth.html

    Synthetic info: (warning, irritating web page)
    http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm

    Pro Synthetic oil - against additives:
    http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-...398879B4-prod4

    Pro Synthetic oil:
    http://www.centuryperformance.com/engineoil.htm

    I have seen many articles regarding dyno testing Mustangs after they have convereted from dino-based to full synthetic lubes (engine, trans, differential). They've all shown at least some benefit, and even some to the tune of 10-15whp (remember this is a RWD car).

    I did the switch on my Mustang (blown SN95 making ~430rwhp) and didn't notice any difference at all.

    YMMV.
    Aloha, Richard...
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  9. #23
    Registered User NJSubieTech's Avatar
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    Re: Synthetic Oil at start-up during the winter

    Originally posted by keithja
    The other poster(s) is WRONG. The pour point for synthetics is much lower than dino oil. Giver the winter temperature in Mich., it should be significant.

    Maybe Im not up on my terms here - but what exactly do you mean by "pour point?" You seeem to be implying that synthetic oil will be less viscous at colder temps. This would not make sense however - because a 5 weight oil is a 5 weight oil weather its mineral, sythetic or whatever?




    As far as the engine running goes after warm-up, you may get better gas mileage (only slightly) but that is about it.
    So youre now implying that youre going to get better gas mileage with synthetics, but no power gain? This makes no sense. How are you going to get better mileage without freeing up power?

    I did imply that you might get 1-2% hp gain - but its inconcieveable that you could feel that.
    Last edited by NJSubieTech; 01-19-2003 at 02:52 AM.
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  10. #24
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    The definition of pour point is the lowest temperature at which oil will pour (SAE: Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined.).

    Fact: Synthetic oil have a lower one. For example: Synthetics run colder than -50 degrees F...Mobil 1 is -54. Dino oil runs around -20 to -40 or so.

    Thus when it is very cold, like in Mich in the morning say -5 or -15 degrees in Feb on the upper P, it is a fact that the syn oil will flow more easily. It maintains it viscosity better than dino oil when cold. In laymans terms, the dino oil is thicker when cold and places more resistance against the starter motor.

    At extremes of temperature, an oil's viscosity behavior breakdowns. If you graph the behavior of syn and dino oil as a function of temp...at low temps the lines will not lay on top of each other...they are not the same function. This is the key. In other words, at -15 or -20 degrees F a synthetic oil will work closer to a 5W than the same weight dino oil. If this was not true, dino oil's pour point would be the same as synthetic oil...and it is not the same. Dino oil's viscosity behavior degrades more quickly than synthetic at low temp...a fact. This is the error is your argument...low temp performance is the same function (mathematically) between dino and syn...a fact.

    At normal temp, the viscosity behavior of dino and syn are very close. Close enough to say they are the same.

    At very high temps, dino oil will coke (turn to sludge) at a lower temp than syn oil. This is describe by flash point term. This is important due to the temp at the turbo bearings. What can happen is coking of the oil, gumming up the oil return and thus casuing turbo bearing failure.

    In sum, dino oil viscosity behaves like syn oil EXCEPT at the extremes of temperature.

    Under load, syn oil also has an advantage. It has a superior film strength. You read a lot abou this with regard to additive packages (not to be confused with after market additives) on high end oil.

    If you don't believe me spend some time reading at:
    http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

    or

    http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/synth.html

    Keith

  11. #25
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    Ooops, NOT the same function...typo

    Ooops, NOT the same function...typo

  12. #26
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    At normal operating temp

    syn oil film strength is superior...thus more "slippery" thus slightly better performance where close tolerances exist.

  13. #27
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    BTW...

    the environment here is not exactly friendly. It seems to be rather territorial, with emphasis on maintaining ones imagine over facts.

    Just an observation!

  14. #28
    Registered User NJSubieTech's Avatar
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    Keith,

    I hate to phrase this in the following way, but the only thing about this enviornment that was "unfriendly" was your use of caps in:

    "The other poster(s) is WRONG"

    I make it a point not to alienate anyone on these boards, because people come here looking for information - not arguments. If you look, you will notice that the tone of my posts is always subdued.

    I like to see that people leave here with correct information. I am aware that Im certianly not always right, which is why I dont assert that things are wrong - I question them.
    "Damn.... this car is wicked fast..." ~ My roomate, owner of a supercharged/intercooled 97 Trans AM
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  15. #29
    Registered User NJSubieTech's Avatar
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    Now,

    You still have yet to explain to me how youre going to get better gas mileage without any significant horsepower gain. I looked on the two sights you listed and found nothing about it either. Nor did I find anything stating that your egine would start easier in the cold with synthetics...

    What I did find on the second link was the following:

    "Synthetic oils were originally developed more than 50 years ago and became widely used in jet engines. Less than -120F ambient temperatures, 60,000 shaft rpm, and 500+F exhaust temperatures proved too much for conventional oils. Synthetics were created specifically to withstand these harsh conditions..."

    I dont think my car gets to -120 or over 500 so I kept looking and i found this:


    "High engine temperatures and heavy loads (as typically found in towing or racetrack applications) cause these chains to break down and the base stock actually boils off causing a change of viscosity and the formulation of sludge. This can happen at temperatures as low as 230 F and by 250 F many petroleum oils are suffering significant breakdown. Synthetic oils on the other hand are made engineered specifically to provide all the lubricating properties that natural oil possesses, but none of the cold thickening or hot thinning properties of petroleum oil. Synthetics are made up of uniformly shaped molecules with shorter carbon chains which are much more resistant to heat and stress. Synthetics can withstand temperatures of 290F all day long and still protect your engine."

    I dont think anyone heres towing anything with their Rex, or driving around all day at 6000 rpm with the oil temps at 290.

    Note: Im still not saying there is no gain from synthetics, and I use them in my car.

    I am saying:

    1 - Theyre not giving you noticably more power.

    2 - Theyre not making your car easier to start (I'll add, unless you live where temps get below -20)

    3 - Theyre not giving you better gas mileage.


    Thats all
    Last edited by NJSubieTech; 01-19-2003 at 06:39 PM.
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  16. #30
    Banned dark_rex's Avatar
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    as for the topic of this thread: easier start congitions, increase in HP noticiable w/o a dyno , and viscosity difference at -15degrees or above, NONE of your links have included ANY information on that.

    they mention that some oils have shown an increase of 1-3% (not all, which is also subject to debate as the wrx stock dynos from anywhere from 160 - 190 hp on different rollers, that's a, 18% delta FYI) -- even at a generpis 5% increase by your references, leaving about 5hp on the table at the crank, it would be impossible given driving conditions, ambiant temp, variation in every cycle etc. to determine that increase on the 5 senses alone. i'm sorry. the butt dyno is NOT THAT GOOD. REGULAR dynos aren't that good.

    i have already mentioned the "smooth start" feeling. lube is lube. the differences you feel in MI are the computer changing timing and mix to lower emissions. that is NOT lube based. 5w oil is out of the pan in SECONDS to lubricate your block. EVEN in the typical MI winter.

    please post some specigic quotes with references to that information, and i'll gladly admit i was incorrect. you're arguing that it's tuesday, and the discussion is about meatballs.

    back to the point, NO ONE can tell me their car runs smoother, faster, or better after an oil change. it's just not possible man. OF COURSE i know that syn is a better lubing, longer lasting, more durable lubricant. thanks for all the wonderful information. that's why i run it in my car. my turbo's going to last longer for it becasue of it's flash point, and even if my filter gets dirty, the oil is still capable of lubricating long after the typical life cycle of dino oil.

    BUT YOU STILL FAIL TO REFUTE THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. i regret that you feel challenged, or that this board is not hospitable. i would solemnly beg to differ with you that this is the most accepting board i have the pleasure of posting on. also the most knowledgeable. please try to maintain this as a normal conversation. that's all it is. we're all adults here (unless you're in the wrx vs world forum. )

    dR

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