Road & Track: 09WRX vs MS3 vs Ralliart vs Cobalt

[RayfieldsWRX]

It's goofy to take an extreme view on either side.

I've rented a lot of cars for my job, over the years, both domestic and import. In my opinion, the domestics have indeed improved their designs and quality control. Generally speaking, when I rent a Saturn, Pontiac G6, etc, I come away feeling like it was a good effort, with perhaps one or two small things that marred the experience. Something like "Geez, the dash is pretty nice, otherwise...why'd they have to go so cheap on the radio buttons?"...etc.

Based on these experiences, I think it's an out-dated notion to run around saying that all USDM autos are POS's. I'll agree on select, comparable vehicles. (I rented a Dodge Caliber a couple of weeks ago. The materials used for the interior were a joke, the comparably priced Corolla gives a lot more for the money)
Is the reliability up to par? I'd love to see some sort of statistics to show, based on cars over the last 3-4 model years. I have a plethora of neighbors with domestic cars, and they all seem to be happy with them. That's a changed attitude from 10-15 years ago.

Oh, and you're just a bit off with this "Z06 versus Ferrari" comparison. The Z06 MSRP is less than half the cost of the lowest cost Ferrari out there, the F430.

...awaits the inevitable "know-it-all" label...

[ninefourteener]

OUCH!!!

Man you guys are killin me here

Thats ok though, I respect your opinions, and it's obvious by the manner in which you responded, that you respect mine as well.

With that, I was referring to a Used Ferrari. A "new" Ferrari is really only obtainable by the top .01% of the poulation. Honestly though, thats seems to be the primary purchaser of the Z06s as well. Regardless of the cost to maintain it, I'd still rather have one than a Z06.

I'm sure a lot of USDM cars are better than they were a few years ago. I've also been "burned" on more than one USDM car, so perhaps that's why I'm so biased. It doesn't change the fact that even if the quality is better, the resale value isn't, which begs me to ask the question "Why do we even bother buying them?"

I study used car values, because since I started driving, I've owned over 30 cars, and the Hondas, Acuras, Mitsubishis, Mazdas and Subarus are the only cars that even SLIGHTLY retained their value.

I also managed an Advance Auto Parts store for 3 years..... and let's just say we stocked a LOT more Ford and Chevy parts than anything else.

Ironically, I had a Honda Passport SUV several years ago. Lost my ass on it. Why? It had an Isuzu engine. (Didn't know that when I bought it). The resale value was terrible because of it.

When my wife and I were shopping for her Mazda3... we stopped to look at the Pontiac Vibe. The dealer's strongest selling point? (And the comment he opened up with).... "It's got a Toyota engine!". My response was "Why don't I just buy a Toyota then?"

Sorry if I offended anyone.... I am a skeptic, and I am bitter.... and you're correct, I'm sure there are more than a few USDM vehicles that are ok. I am right about the resale value thing though. They drop through the floor 2 years after you buy them, but they aren't any cheaper new.... that doesn't make any sense.

I stand firm on my convictions of never buying another USDM car. I love JDM cars, and I know if I ever find another one I love better, I can trade in what I have and not lose my ass on it.

[SD_GR]

All the Corvette and the Viper (and to be fair, the Supra) amount to -- all it seems they will ever amount to -- are very, VERY fast cars. In the future they will become even faster (those models that are extant, that is... The Supra met its fate already). They might become even cheaper. They might be quicker, easier to live with, and more affordable than a supercar right now, and they may always have been...

They're still not interesting cars.

However, both the Japanese and the Americans have made great cars and continue to do so. It's just that some of their "halo" efforts have been at best misguided, and it seems their attempts to fix the problems have just resulted in extremely fast cars that can really move, but still have the same issues.

Do US consumers get good offerings from abroad? Typically, yes. Honda and Toyota, arguably the best auto makers in the world, have both brought over their flagship cars at one point or another. Some have sold, some have sat in lots.

[Dan00Hawk]

Thanks for better explaining your position, 914. I know what you mean about resale value, and that can increase the cost of ownership, especially for those that buy new and trade it in within 3 years.

The JDM cars are starting to get pricier, though, and there are frequently incentives (employee discount, invoice pricing, 0% financing) on the US vehicles that help make their total ownership costs more equitable. It's also typically less expensive for wear and tear items for a US vehicle than an import as well: Brakes, clutches, shocks, etc... I've also found it easier to work on an American car versus an import. That could be another reason why auto-parts stores carry so many Chevy and Ford parts: Owners of those are more likely to do their own maintenance, and there are simply a higher number of them on the roads. Although having poor reliability, as you stated, would also come into play as well...

Resale value is an important factor, but there are other factors that play a significant role in the cost of ownership as well.

[langridge]

It's old news; in fact I think I've already seen a thread of some sort about it. Anyways, the new R and T does a comparo with MS 3, Cobalt, 09 WRX, and some other car that I can't even remember (brain fart). To make a long story short, they picked the Cobalt with the WRX in 2nd place which is a travesty in itself since when you look at straight numbers, reliability, handling, etc. the WRX stomps it. My question, or surprise, in reading the article was that the 09 WRX was only .1 seconds slower to 60 mph than the STi. Now I know magazine articles tend to bias the numbers or maybe fudge a little, but why would Subaru put out the WRX with performance numbers so close to their premier sports tuner car? Did they wind up the boost for this test car making the rounds for everyone to test, or is there an incredible STi in the wings? Sorry in advance if I am a little behind the times with this one, but any links or other info. on the future of the WRX vs the STi would be awesome.

[ninefourteener]

^^^^^

I'm guessing because the 09 STI is going to be a MONSTER.

[Dan00Hawk]

Originally Posted by langridge

It's old news; in fact I think I've already seen a thread of some sort about it. Anyways, the new R and T does a comparo with MS 3, Cobalt, 09 WRX, and some other car that I can't even remember (brain fart). To make a long story short, they picked the Cobalt with the WRX in 2nd place which is a travesty in itself since when you look at straight numbers, reliability, handling, etc. the WRX stomps it.

The article you are referring to is in the first post of this thread (I think it got merged). But, if you actually look at the numbers and the results, the SS out-handles (better skidpad and slalom results) the WRX numbers wise, and also subjectively as well since the testers preferred the SS in their rankings against each other. And as discussed previously in this thread, The SS accelerates quicker in a straight line at all points than the WRX aside from when traction is an issue at the launch.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...risonchart.pdf
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...theresults.pdf

If you wanted to say you prefer the WRX because of it's AWD stability and advantage in adverse conditions, or because you'd just rather have a WRX in your driveway for your own subjective reasons, then I'd agree with you.

For my needs, I'd probably choose the WRX too. But I can certainly understand why the SS won this particular comparison test.

[langridge]

Thanks for hooking my thread with the "original" correct thread. Very informative!

[langridge]

A couple more points to make; I think Subaru needs to decide if they are making a rally (as in off-road rally) car, or a street monster, such as the Cobalt or MS3. If they want to compete in skidpad and handling characteristics, then a suspension re-do is in order. They already have the power down to a science, but need to pick a road vs. off-road bias and stick to it. Another trivial, but interesting, point to me is that GM has had market shares of Subaru for past years and now have a car that is handling better and quicker in certain applications. Hmmmm? In this price range, all these cars will have their +'s and -'s, but it is up to the potential owner to test each one and buy it. Auto purchasing is one arena in which "you get what you paid for." Any of us would be hard pressed to find a fault with a Ferrari Enzo or a Lamborghini Reventon parked in our garage, but like someone said earlier only .01% of the population could actually even think of owning one of these. I am looking ahaead to the 09 Rex and STi to put Subaru back on top, because honestly the other sport compacts are just boring to me and have no character. Sorry for ranting about my silly opinions, but we all know Subaru is the best.

[stare_decisis]

im sure if we go to a mazda3, cobalt, or mitsu board...they'd be all about their cars, respectively. each and every one of them are great cars for under $25k. they are the best performing cars you can buy for the money...and to me, subaru started this craze when they brought over the wrx in 2002. before that, nothing even came close to the wrx in terms of performance for the money. now 6 years later, we have some real competition. so to my fellow wrx owners...be proud of your car. real enthusiasts in a ms3, ss, or ralliart know that the wrx started it all

[Anzioblack44]

I did lots of research before i bought.
I loved my 2003 WRX, but all the differential and transmission problems, combined with not so great fuel economy steered me towards the Speed3 and Cobalt SS

Then you look at the turbo problems of the MS6 and MS3, along with people breaking into the mazdas with a kick in the right place. It made the mazda hard to trust.

The cobalt has ho-hum styling no doubt. but then you see things like 5y/100k warranty and roadside assistance, 30mpg hwy and (im averaging 34 on my 20mi commute). 105mph trap speed, 70mph slalom, big brembo front brakes, IPOD integration.

I love all the cars in this test, but chevy gave the enthusiast way more for the cash

[blauenlanze]

this isnt the first time a chevy product out did another on C&D mag when it wasn't impossible. back when they did the "cheap speed contest" with the 05- rsx-s, wrx,srt4,redline and cobalt ss. they had the srt quarter mile at 14.0@102 and the ss at 14.4@99. but if you look later in the specs they had the srt 0-100 at 14.5sec and the ss at 13.9. i'll try to find the link to it.....

R&T has the 09 WRX trapping a higher quarter mile than the 08 STi by a few mph. Weird, huh?

My question, or surprise, in reading the article was that the 09 WRX was only .1 seconds slower to 60 mph than the STi.

Most magazines have turned out a 0-60 for 4.8 for the 08 STi, why R&T has 5.0 and the weird quarter mile time is beyond me.

Still an advantage of 1.2 seconds for the SS. Getting rid of the 2nd to 3rd shift in the 60 mph range helps the WRX a bit since the SS has the "no lift" feature which basically allows power shifting and no loss in boost for the SS.

I don't think the SS has 'anti-lag' out of the factory. The ECU closes the throttle plate automatically during the shift, correct? Or at least it cuts fuel, like a soft rev-limit when the clutch is in.

[DTR rex]

As an avid hater of the 2008 WRX; I am thoroughly impressed by the 2009 WRX. I am shocking myself to say that if I buying a $25,000 car the wrx (once again, finally) would probably get my money.

[josnroh]

Originally Posted by DTR rex

As an avid hater of the 2008 WRX; I am thoroughly impressed by the 2009 WRX. I am shocking myself to say that if I buying a $25,000 car the wrx (once again, finally) would probably get my money.

[DTR rex]

Originally Posted by josnroh

Yeah, I know.

I nearly **** myself too.