ihi v39 OK for 03 WRX? - Page 2
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This is a discussion on ihi v39 OK for 03 WRX? within the Engine Modifications forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by BrianH wow, someone trys to help you and you become some punk with sand in their **** ...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH
    wow, someone trys to help you and you become some punk with sand in their ****

    go with the pros that do this 'every day' and enjoy your car.
    I think he is just being a little misguided on this and wants his car to be okay. I realize people are trying to help but in his defense he is hearing this from people who are supposed to be professional Subaru experts, TARMACUSA formally flat4 engineering out of Boulder Colorado, but if they could come on here and explain why this setup with no fuel mods and EM will work safely, I would love to hear them.
    2004 WRX completely stock! And becoming even more stock daily.

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  3. #17
    Registered User rickyh's Avatar
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    I guess in the scheme of things, the 39 is not that big of a turbo. Hell, there was a post a while back about a guy running a t67 at 14 psi with stock fuel and ecu! That is pure insanity. I never tried running stock boost and fuel with that turbo. I tried one pull at 11-12 psi and that was enough for me. the car isn't going to explode on the dyno, and he will probably be able to drive it for quite a while, but the margin of safety isn't there. (that of course is just my opinion) If the shop he is going to has done this before, then go with them. If he has a way to keep the boost down, then great, all is probably well. I'd like to see dyno plots of this. Now if he bumped up his static fuel pressure about 10 pounds, and got a larger fuel pump, then he could definately up teh boost. the only problem is that he would need a way to tune for it.

    good luck, and keep us posted on your results.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyh
    I guess in the scheme of things, the 39 is not that big of a turbo. Hell, there was a post a while back about a guy running a t67 at 14 psi with stock fuel and ecu! That is pure insanity. I never tried running stock boost and fuel with that turbo. I tried one pull at 11-12 psi and that was enough for me. the car isn't going to explode on the dyno, and he will probably be able to drive it for quite a while, but the margin of safety isn't there. (that of course is just my opinion) If the shop he is going to has done this before, then go with them. If he has a way to keep the boost down, then great, all is probably well. I'd like to see dyno plots of this. Now if he bumped up his static fuel pressure about 10 pounds, and got a larger fuel pump, then he could definately up teh boost. the only problem is that he would need a way to tune for it.

    good luck, and keep us posted on your results.
    Im pretty sure he blew his motor up, I remember seeing a video of him taking out a z06 and him making good power but I think that came to an end. But a t67 can ingest small dogs like the one in my avatar. So I say, I wouldnt do it but im not in that situation. If everything feels right like you say it does than go with it for now. But just plan on injectors and em.
    Last edited by CUBUFF; 03-27-2005 at 09:33 AM.
    2004 WRX completely stock! And becoming even more stock daily.

  5. #19
    Administrator Trainrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kite_tmr
    Hey Tainrex - thanks for the input A Sshole...

    .
    I gave my input earlier in the thread. You could bolt on this turbo, raise your fuel pressure, mess with boost, and sprinkle pixie dust on it. No matter what, without engine management, your fuel will be all over the place. You were advised by multiple people to invest in the correct running gear, and one shop with an interesting reputation told you to just bolt it on. The shop told you what you wanted to hear. You seem to have made up your mind not to do it the correct way, so I changed my advice to "Go for it mang!!! Bolt it on" That's what you wanted to hear.

    Oh, and P.S. Thanks for the compliment
    Last edited by Trainrex; 03-27-2005 at 07:36 AM.

  6. #20
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    THe shop with the "interesting rep" introduced the idea to me (not told me what i wanted to hear) when we needed a solution for the broken td04. They said might as well use a better turbo (since the old one was done) and felt that using a larger (but not real large) turbo to accomplish the same thing (stock psi) was the way to go. A larger turbo that isn't working as hard rather than maxing out a smaller turbo.
    I don't claim to know everything and that's why i post here. The idea that PSI is a measurement that can change from one application to the next seems illogical. Why would psi with one turbo be more than with another? (Is anyone saying that because the turbo is larger the psi is automatically increased?) The flow of air may be more efficient with the vf39 but the psi remains the same. It almost sounds like saying 1lb of steel is heavier than 1lb of feathers.
    I appreciate all opinions. I don't who the people are who are posting, or how knowledgeable they are, therefore i will get as many opinions as possible. Obviously my mind is not "made up" and that is why i continue pursuing opinions. I posted this same topic on NASIOC to see if opinions are the same.
    At any rate, on Monday I will have an interesting conversation with the guys at Flat4/Tarmac. I will also get the car to the dyno and all mysteries will be solved. Until then if you see an 03 wrx driving around at 2000rpm's that might be me.
    Oh yeah, and when you're sarcastic to an adult male from NYC expect it back...
    Last edited by kite_tmr; 03-27-2005 at 11:07 AM.
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  7. #21
    Administrator Trainrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kite_tmr
    THe shop with the "interesting rep" introduced the idea to me (not told me what i wanted to hear) when we needed a solution for the broken td04. They said might as well use a better turbo (since the old one was done) and felt that using a larger (but not real large) turbo to accomplish the same thing (stock psi) was the way to go. A larger turbo that isn't working as hard rather than maxing out a smaller turbo.
    I don't claim to know everything and that's why i post here. The idea that PSI is a measurement that can change from one application to the next seems illogical. Why would psi with one turbo be more than with another? (Is anyone saying that because the turbo is larger the psi is automatically increased?) The flow of air may be more efficient with the vf39 but the psi remains the same. It almost sounds like saying 1lb of steel is heavier than 1lb of feathers.
    14psi on the stock turbo isn't the same as 14psi on a VF39. The VF39 is moving much more air or CFM (cubic feet per minute). You need fuel management to ensure proper AFR's when you are pushing more air. Your ECU is calibrated for a TD04 pushing X amount of CFM, not a VF39 pushing more CFM. Even if you cut down on your boost, both turbos have different spool charactaristics, and your fueling will be all over the place.

    Quote Originally Posted by kite_tmr
    Oh yeah, and when you're sarcastic to an adult male from NYC expect it back...
    Sarcasm is one thing, dodging the swear filter with a personal attack is another. Check the forum rules on that one.

  8. #22
    Registered User ScoobVee's Avatar
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    I ran that turbo my 02 with stock ecu, fuel pump, injectors, and I ran the SH!T out of it for about a year @ 14.5 psi, I later upped my set up to 550's, PE1820, SAFC II, and walbro 255 lph, other than eating 2nd gear, AND BEING STOLEN !!! , there were no problems. I did a compression test about a month before the car was totaled and everything was fine

    With TBE, UP, VF39, CAI, and stock TMIC, My 02 pulled Fvkin hard on TBE WRX's.

    EMS from 02 to 03 is different as you probably know, so this might not even help. I do know it would be alot better than the stocker

  9. #23
    Registered User cbr600f3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobVee
    I ran that turbo my 02 with stock ecu, fuel pump, injectors, and I ran the SH!T out of it for about a year @ 14.5 psi, I later upped my set up to 550's, PE1820, SAFC II, and walbro 255 lph, other than eating 2nd gear, AND BEING STOLEN !!! , there were no problems. I did a compression test about a month before the car was totaled and everything was fine

    With TBE, UP, VF39, CAI, and stock TMIC, My 02 pulled Fvkin hard on TBE WRX's.

    EMS from 02 to 03 is different as you probably know, so this might not even help. I do know it would be alot better than the stocker
    I believe the 02 wrx uses closed loop fuelling. I am probably wrong on this. I agree with many of the posters on this board. It flows more air than the TD-04 13t at the same boost PERIOD.

    The original poster said he wanted a reliable setup. IMHO, running anything larger than stock without the proper supporting mods is rolling the dice. Unless you do all the proper supporting mods (injectors, fp, em) its not IF you will blow your motor but WHEN.

    Just because one person said its ok its always a good idea to research..
    Last edited by cbr600f3; 03-27-2005 at 06:34 PM.
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    To run that turbo the safe and correct way, you will need to upgrade your injectors, fuel pump, and engine management. The most popular injectors for this application are the STI "pink" injectors. The most popular fuel pump is the Walbro 255lph pump. Engine management is a subjective thing. The most popular options are Ecutek, and Utec. Cobb also just released it's Street Tuner, but I don't know of any shops tuning them yet.
    Don't run a mis-matched setup do it right. This is the way to get the full benifit from your upgrade. You could also pick up a used td04 and plug it in until you can upgrage the fuel and EM, then just sell it.
    W#0rEing posts since 2003

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    It's clear that most of you really have no clue what you are talking about. All you are doing is regurgitating what others have told you or what you've read.

    “OMG You ares put'en a bigger turbizo on yo ride? You need EM, PINKS, PUMP and TOONING!”

    Give me a break!

    I can tell you with out a doubt that swapping a stock wrx turbo with a vf 39 running stock boost control will not "blow" his motor. Yes his injector duty cycles will be higher, NO this is not the best way to make power, but it will work as a replacement.

    A few of you keep bringing up the point that a vf39 is a larger turbo and that 14 psi on a stock turbo is not the same as 14 psi on a larger turbo. OK, that's fine. For years thousands people have been throwing boost controllers on stock turbos and running 18psi on stock fuel systems. The fact of the matter is the WRX stock is over fueled and you can get away with doing such things. So what's worse? Running an efficient 14 psi on a vf39 or a TDO4 blowing hot air @ 18 psi?

    Now this would be a totally different story if he said he was going to crank the boost to see how much power he can get. Stock boost tapers to 12psi at redline!


    You need fuel management to ensure proper AFR's when you are pushing more air. Your ECU is calibrated for a TD04 pushing X amount of CFM, not a VF39 pushing more CFM. Even if you cut down on your boost, both turbos have different spool charactaristics, and your fueling will be all over the place.
    This is a wrong statement if I ever saw one.

    The stock ecu is very smart for what it is. Using a MAF sensor it reads how much air is going into the engine and adds fuel as needed. As long as the mods are not extreme the ecu can and will adjust fuel trims to deal with more air.

    If the computer is "calibrated" for X amount of CFM please tell me what happens in the summer when the air charge is less dense and in the winter where the charge is more dense?

    Start doing your homework guys or stop answering questions that you really don’t know the answers to.

  12. #26
    Administrator Trainrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codean




    This is a wrong statement if I ever saw one.

    The stock ecu is very smart for what it is. Using a MAF sensor it reads how much air is going into the engine and adds fuel as needed. As long as the mods are not extreme the ecu can and will adjust fuel trims to deal with more air.

    If the computer is "calibrated" for X amount of CFM please tell me what happens in the summer when the air charge is less dense and in the winter where the charge is more dense?

    Start doing your homework guys or stop answering questions that you really don’t know the answers to.
    The ECU has the ability to make minor changes, not major ones. I guess all these stupid tuners have been using engine management for no reason all these years!!! To think I wasted my money on larger injectors, fuel pump, and engine management when I put my VF34 on!!! I guess I should sell them now, and let the stock ECU tune itself. Most people in here tend to tune on the side of safety, not just throwing parts on, and hoping the engine lasts.

    Disclaimer: Before anyone gets their panties in a ruffle, some of this post was sarcasm.
    Last edited by Trainrex; 03-28-2005 at 05:06 AM.

  13. #27
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    Exclamation

    I see we have stirred the up quite a hornets nest here. I will try to explain our side of this. We have based this part change on several different things.

    1. What the customer had in mind for performance gains and his expectations.
    2. Boost level was to remain at the stock psi.
    3. The fact that the VF39 is more efficient than the TD04 that we took off. Boost should be smoother and the turbo will not have to work as hard (not heat up the air as much) to achieve the same amount of pressure. The pressure is still maintained by the factory ecu. The air that is getting into the engine is cooler and denser than before. The volume of air will be increased a slight amount but the factory MAF and fuel system should be suffice to cover this small change. If we were changing the boost level or the customer was expecting larger gains we would have addressed the factory fuel system and made suggestions.

    We are willing to put the car on our Dyno and test it. If there are any points through out the power band that are not up to a safe air / fuel level. We will work with the customer to solve this. We feel the haphazard approach to just bolting on all available fuel supplements is not the way to go. Most cars out there are running way to rich for the amount of modifications that are done to them. From our findings these customers are hurting the total performance of their cars even though they may feel faster. They have not done things correctly. Look at most of the posts on this one topic. The first thing everyone wants to do is add way more fuel than you may need.

    “To run that turbo the safe and correct way, you will need to upgrade your injectors, fuel pump, and engine management. The most popular injectors for this application are the STI "pink" injectors. The most popular fuel pump is the Walbro 255lph pump. Engine management is a subjective thing. The most popular options are Ecutek, and Utec.”

    Ideally if we were tuning this car for maximum power we would suggest the fuel pump, the STI injectors, and an Ecutek map to match the compilation of parts this customer has on his car. This would give him the biggest bang and the most complete package available. This is something we may do in the future depending on what the customer wants at that time.

    I attached an article for your reading

    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

    Application Note: You CAN be too Rich

    By Klaus Allmendinger,
    VP of Engineering, Innovate Motorsports

    Many people with turbochargers believe that they need to run at very rich mixtures. The theory is that the excess fuel cools the intake charge and therefore reduces the probability of knock. It does work in reducing knock, but not because of charge cooling. The following little article shows why.

    First let’s look at the science. Specific heat is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kg of material by one degree K (Kelvin, same as Celsius but with 0 point at absolute zero). Different materials have different specific heats. The energy is measured in kJ or kilojoules:

    Air ~ 1 kJ/( kg * deg K)
    Gasoline 2.02 kJ/( kg * deg K)
    Water 4.18 kJ/( kg * deg K)
    Ethanol 2.43 kJ/( kg * deg K)
    Methanol 2.51 kJ/( kg * deg K)

    Fuel and other liquids also have what's called latent heat. This is the heat energy required to vaporize 1 kg of the liquid. The fuel in an internal combustion engine has to be vaporized and mixed thoroughly with the incoming air to produce power. Liquid gasoline does not burn. The energy to vaporize the fuel comes partially from the incoming air, cooling it.

    The latent heat energy required is actually much larger than the specific heat.

    That the energy comes from the incoming air can be easily seen on older carbureted cars, where frost can actually form on the intake manifold from the cooling of the charge.The latent heat values of different liquids are shown here:

    Gasoline 350 kJ/kg
    Water 2256 kJ/kg
    Ethanol 904 kJ/kg
    Methanol 1109 kJ/kg

    Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5. This means that for every kg of air, 0.08 kg of fuel is mixed in and vaporized. The vaporization of the fuel extracts 28 kJ of energy from the air charge. If the mixture has an air-fuel-ratio of 11 instead, the vaporization extracts 31.8 kJ instead. A difference of 3.8 kJ. Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.

    If instead of the richer mixture about 10% (by mass) of water would be injected in the intake charge (0.008 kg Water/kg air), the high latent heat of the water would cool the charge by 18 degrees, about 4 times the cooling effect of the richer mixture. The added fuel for the rich mixture can't burn because there is just not enough oxygen available.

    So it does not matter if fuel or water is added.

    So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?

    If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.

    So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.

    Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.

    Optimum mix with “later” ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here’s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.

    This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power.

    I am going to leave this topic open and we will test the car and see what we find. I will stand behind this installation and we will make any necessary changes we find. We will post the dyno chart and the A/F ratio through out the power band. Keith is a good customer and has sent several people my way. I will take good care of him.
    Last edited by Tarmac-USA; 03-28-2005 at 10:48 AM.
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  14. #28
    Administrator Trainrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmac-USA
    I see we have stirred the up quite a hornets nest here. I will try to explain our side of this. We have based this part change on several different things.

    1. What the customer had in mind for performance gains and his expectations.
    2. Boost level was to remain at the stock.
    3. The fact that the VF39 is more efficient than the TD04 that we took off. Boost should be smoother and the turbo will not have to work as hard (not heat up the air as much) to achieve the same amount of pressure. The pressure is still maintained by the factory ecu. The air that is getting into the engine is cooler and denser than before. The volume of air will be increased a slight amount but the factory MAF and fuel system should be suffice to cover this small change. If we were changing the boost level or the customer was expecting larger gains we would have addressed the factory fuel system and made suggestions.

    We are willing to put the car on our Dyno and test it. If there are any points through out the power band that are not up to a safe air / fuel level. We will work with the customer to solve this. We feel the haphazard approach to just bolting on all available fuel supplements is not the way to go. Most cars out there are running way to rich for the amount of modifications that are done to them. From our findings these customers are hurting the total performance of their cars even though they may feel faster. They have not done things correctly. Look at most of the posts on this one topic. The first thing everyone wants to do is add way more fuel than you may need.

    “To run that turbo the safe and correct way, you will need to upgrade your injectors, fuel pump, and engine management. The most popular injectors for this application are the STI "pink" injectors. The most popular fuel pump is the Walbro 255lph pump. Engine management is a subjective thing. The most popular options are Ecutek, and Utec.”

    Ideally if we were tuning this car for maximum power we would suggest the fuel pump, the STI injectors, and an Ecutek map to match the compilation of parts this customer has on his car. This would give him the biggest bang and the most complete package available. This is something we may do in the future depending on what the customer wants at that time.

    I am going to leave this topic open and we will test the car and see what we find. I will stand behind this installation and we will make any necessary changes we find. We will post the dyno chart and the A/F ratio through out the power band. Keith is a good customer and has sent several people my way. I will take good care of him.
    I agree that our cars run rich with the original setup, and some cars are running too rich with certain tunes, but I don't understand the mentality of doing anything halfway. In my mind, if you are going to upgrade, do it the correct way. If he is looking for a replacement turbo, he has to look no farther than the private for sale section, and buy a used stocker for $150. He seems to be looking for more power. I wasn't suggesting bolting on injectors, and a fuel pump and having at it, I was suggesting engine management which is normally accompanied by a custom tune coupled with those upgrades to make some decent reliable power. It's his car, and of course he can do what he wants with it. He came on here and asked for advice on weather or not we thought it was safe to simply bolt on the turbo. I don't feel it's safe, but then again, I'm just another moron on the forum. He isn't required to listen to me, and I hope it works out for him .
    Last edited by Trainrex; 03-28-2005 at 10:32 AM.

  15. #29
    Administrator RayfieldsWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    but then again, I'm just another moron on the forum. He isn't required to listen to me, and I hope it works out for him .
    That's the thing, Andrew. You are NOT just another moron on this forum. You have more applied car knowledge in your pinky than the majority of posters to Engine Performance, myself included. Yet we still get the classic "post a question...don't like the answer...pretend guy who's worked on everything you can think of knows nothing so call him an a$$hole" posts.

    The truth is, they'll probably cobble things together in such a way as to make this car run ok with VF39 and a stock fuel system and ECU map. Will it be a well-thought out solution? Will it be right? No. The simple truth is that the car wasn't engineered for that turbo. Period.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    The ECU has the ability to make minor changes, not major ones. I guess all these stupid tuners have been using engine management for no reason all these years!!!
    Did you read what I said?

    As long as the mods are not extreme the ecu can and will adjust fuel trims to deal with more air
    Bolting on a slightly larger turbo and running factory boost control is not a "major" change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    Most people in here tend to tune on the side of safety, not just throwing parts on, and hoping the engine lasts.
    Most of the people in here are not the most advanced when it comes to tuning. Everything has become cookie cutter for mod paths and unfortunately some untrue things have been ground into the minds of the weak.

    Bolt on a turbo.... you must have injectors, pump and EM regardless of what your doing with it.

    You need to understand that If he's running low boost he is not in dire need these things.

    If you can add anything technical to suport your side please do so, I would love to hear it.

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