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This is a discussion on engine revs when lifting off gas within the Engine Modifications forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; chill offroadwagon, chill, it was not sometihng that was happening when i was learning how to drive stick and now ...

  1. #31
    Registered User wrxwex's Avatar
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    chill offroadwagon, chill, it was not sometihng that was happening when i was learning how to drive stick and now it is, but it is definitely driver error, because when i am very careful and totally let off the gas before i clutch in, it never happens, so, do i always have to do this, how can i do it faster, this question probably seems a little retarded, but please comment on how u up shift at high rpms, thanks,

    and why is this a bad car to learn stick on?, i think its fine, and im getting smoother and smoother w/ shifting and starting everyday, ive only had the car for 5 days now.

    and what does seeing the hood have to do with driving may i ask, i believe its just a sheet of metal, if ur reffering to the fact that im 19 and most 19 year old kids w/ a nice car lower the seat back way down and drive w/ one hand on the wheel, you are sadly mistaken in judging me
    Last edited by wrxwex; 05-20-2004 at 10:18 AM.
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  3. #32
    Registered User platano's Avatar
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    Any chance that this might be due to boost spike??? Your car is stock though right?
    Quote Originally Posted by zoophagy
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  4. #33
    Registered User OffRoadWagon's Avatar
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    Fixxer - I'm not saying it's always going to be the operator error. There were some people talking about a cruise control issue that cause the car to rev on it's own, which is a good example. Maybe there is a genuine problem with your car. Maybe it's just the way the clutch engages, and it's throwing you off. As I'm sure you know, driving two different manual cars is always going to be a bigger difference than driving two automatics. There's going to be more little nuances that you have to get used to, but after looking at your list of cars, you know that. So all I'm saying is work the car as slowly and cautiously as you can to make sure it's the car, and not yourself.

    wrxwex - as you pointed out yourself, you've decided it is indeed driver error. I wasn't necessarliy refering to you, there's more people posting than just you that are saying they're having this problem, and seemingly coming up with all kinds of ways to explain it OTHER than it being their technique...and it could be one of those other things causing it. my beef was that people often don't even consider that it could be themselves, like they're something special. And they're probably not, cause if they were, they'd be getting paid to drive. But normally even proffesional drivers will still CONSIDER that it could be their technique, as opposed to something with the car not being designed well enough.

    Shifting well at high rpms just takes practise. You probably won't do it well until all your regular shifts are fine. Then, you'll have to get used to your car and it's speed. If you're not as calm with your car at 7000k rpm as you are right after waking up from an afternoon nap, you won't be driving as well as you could be.

    It's a bad car to learn on cause it's expensive and new. There's lots of people that think this car has a weak tranny, but if you check out their posts, you normally find that the people with tranny problems talk about missing shifts, and learning stick, and first race w/ a manual car...stuff like that. It would be cheaper to buy a $300 beater to learn stick on, then when you don't have problems driving that at all, get the WRX, so as to avoid future tranny problems. This car gets the same tranny as the wrx sold in plenty of other places around the world, places were automatics are considered only for the elderly or handicapped. Those people don't think the car has a weak tranny. Go figure...

    And again, I wasn't refering to you when specifically when i was talking about driving position. Hell, i have plenty of friends myself that drive the way you described. They seem to think it's a challenge to drive hondas and mitsu's and mustangs fast. I know they gearbox in the rex is more finnicky than any of theirs. And, I know that if they didn't drive like that, it would be a good place for them to start improving. So I was saying that that would also be a good place for Scooby people to improve, since we DO have a difficult gearbox.

  5. #34
    Registered User Fixxxer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by OffRoadWagon
    Fixxer - I'm not saying it's always going to be the operator error. There were some people talking about a cruise control issue that cause the car to rev on it's own, which is a good example. Maybe there is a genuine problem with your car. Maybe it's just the way the clutch engages, and it's throwing you off. As I'm sure you know, driving two different manual cars is always going to be a bigger difference than driving two automatics. There's going to be more little nuances that you have to get used to, but after looking at your list of cars, you know that. So all I'm saying is work the car as slowly and cautiously as you can to make sure it's the car, and not yourself.
    It may very well be me...
    Like I said, this is my first turbo'd car. Maybe I just need to let off the gas a little sooner since it's got all of that boost built-up.

    Oh well. I'm sure I'll work it out!
    -Lee

  6. #35
    Registered User wrxwex's Avatar
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    ORW, thank you for being so civilized in your response
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  7. #36
    Registered User OffRoadWagon's Avatar
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    Sorry if I came off kind of harsh. Being hard on yourself makes you good at things, being hard on other people makes you an a$s, I know. I guess working in the service industry( medical equipment though, not cars) makes machine vs. operator error kind of personal. Especial w/ medical equipment. You want to make sure the 250rpm on a perfusion pump being used in an open heart is really 250rpm, stuff like that.

    Also, rent or download or some Initial-D. They have some shots of great footwork in there, even if it is animated. Plus do some searches around here for rev-matching, double clutching, etc. Driving technique has come up a few times before, you should be able to find some good info on it.

    -ORW

  8. #37
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    I concur with those who say the rpm surge is boost related.

    I've driven many a manual car, so I'm by no means inexperienced. And judging by the fact that it only happens when boost builds is pretty much solid proof right there.

    On the same note, I think those of you who are dismissing it as driver error are being a little narrow minded. Sure, its logical for anyone to think that the rpms should drop immediately when shifting, but there are so many variables involved with a turbo'ed car's intake system / emission equip that any possibility should at least be considered.

    Edit: I should also mention, that the rpms surging when shifting may also not be a bad thing and I don't mind it at all.
    Last edited by ShapeShifterz; 05-20-2004 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #38
    Registered User OffRoadWagon's Avatar
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    For everyone that is having this happen to them: What about going out driving, making a good amount of boost, completely take your foot off of the gas so that you're coasting in gear, then press in the clutch. Do the rpm's still rise? Be sure to try a couple times.

    I think this whole debate is going to end up in a pretty grey area. Driving is, after all, a bit of an art form. Not an on/off yes/no kind of thing.

  10. #39
    Registered User grimm's Avatar
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    Mine surges around 2-300 for a second then drops, it seems to be normal from the many I have talked to. It may be from the fact that we press the clutch in a split second before we let off the gas so you dont slam forward when you let off the gas before hitting the clutch (I think we have all let off the gas too soon before pressing the clutch and felt a small bang, hopefully once for many). I also think the system needs to absorb the excess pressure still in the intake, albeit a split seconds worth..
    Its all fun and games till someone loses an eye....

  11. #40
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    i still agree w/ OffRoadWagon

    i know myself that when im winding the engine up past 5000k i have a habbit of hitting the clutch too soon before lifting the gas and i the rpms run up another 500 or so.

    however it doesn't happen all the time, when im more relaxed or on open road and not worrying about traffic around me, my shifts are smoother and i dont get the rpm surge.


    actually i went out last night and logged in Delta dash the rpms when i shifted, when i was concentrating and paying attention to my left foot/right foot positions, i got little more than 75rpm surges at shifts.


    if you are getting 500rpm surges at every high rpm shift, you serously need to examine your feet.

  12. #41
    Registered User Retro's Avatar
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    [rant]
    Well, I just re-read the posts and I feel compelled to summarize a few responses here to the general feeling from the messages.

    For those who think it is a matter of just letting your foot off the gas before hitting the clutch, it is not. I used to have this happen once in a while, and during cooler & dryer weather I discoverd it acting up quite a bit on more than one occasion. I actually timed myself and counted out loud (felt like a dork), while I timed my footing and there was no way I was overlapping when it rpm jumped. It never did it more that a tiny blip, but it was noticeable. In my situation it is/was NOT an overlapping issue, but it was a timing issue, I just learned to accept a slower response.

    For those who think this car is perfect because a couple "smart" people got together to build it then all I have to say is get off of Subaru's nuts and grow up. I got news for you, no car is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

    For those who suggest cruising in gear before clutching.. Just how much time do you expect people to wait before clutcing? Is any amount of time good for you? 1/2 second, 1 second, maybe 3? Otherwise what's the difference between saying that and saying slow down????

    For those who assume it's user error for no other reason than to be an a$$ then, good job, they are a$$e$.
    [/rant]
    clutch, shift, gas, clutch, shift, gas, shift, clutch, gas, clutch gas, shift... oops!

  13. #42
    Registered User psychobooe's Avatar
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    When you completely take your foot off the gas and wait a second or two, you negate the effects of the rpm surge. That's not in dispute. However, if you completely remove your foot from the gas and then engage the clutch (as I do) there should be no rpm surge, but there often is. I'm not sure why it happens, but it does. I've drove plenty of manuals in the same manner that I drive my Rex and I've never had this problem before. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I think there is definetely something there. Don't get me wrong, I love my car, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

    psycho

  14. #43
    Registered User blarg's Avatar
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    to summarize the summary:

    1) rpm/boost surge is normal

    2) rpm/boost surge is annoying

    subject closed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blarg
    go f*** yourself

  15. #44
    Registered User OffRoadWagon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by blarg
    to summarize the summary:

    1) rpm/boost surge is normal

    2) rpm/boost surge is annoying

    subject closed?

    Sounds good to me. It's not going to do harm to the car, no matter what camp (man vs. machine) you've sided with. Problem solved, eh?

  16. #45
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    well this is an old thread, but a waste of time reading.. i have the same issue. my issue is definitely not caused by poor timing. it is 100% caused by boost pressure being bypassed. in my case, my tune runs rich under boost (10-12:1) so when the air is bypassed, it causes a 500rpm or so rev. anyone that said that the flywheel or other rotating mass will cause the engine to rev, should never post again. you obviously have no engineering knowledge. ex. - spin a fan blade with your hand, let me know at what point after spinning it, it actually sped up.. point made.. the rotating mass of the engine has way more weight and resistance to slow it down.. at no point of letting off throttle should it ever increase in speed unless its gettings air/fuel/spark to cause it. aka - a problem if you've let off the throttle already and shut the throttle body's butterfly. the spring on the butterfly is strong enough to snap it shut in an instant unless you have a bad spring, stick cable, bad wiring if electronic TB.

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