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This is a discussion on Does this require tune? within the Engine Modifications forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by zax The gains have little if anything to do with the increase in boost pressure. I never ...

  1. #16
    Registered User wrx1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    The gains have little if anything to do with the increase in boost pressure.
    I never attributed gains to my boost pressure. I was just responding to his comment on what boost he was he peaked at with stage one... he then pointed that he noticed a significant bump at stage 2. I was just commenting that i peak at 18.5 and that i still think the increase from stock to stage 1 is greater than stage 1 to stage 2.
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  3. #17
    Admiral Ackbar the 1st mycologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Nope, I'm referring to the change from Stock to Stage 1

    I'm sure that the timing/fueling enhancements have a much greater impact on the increase in output over the increase in boost pressure.
    Timing I'm not sure. I've never really looked at their maps but am a fair bit skeptical. Fueling, no (looking at the graph from the map notes it is very marginally richer stock). Well, fueling as in A/F no, fueling as in getting in enough more fuel for the extra 3 PSI yes. We both know this is a bit silly though and all three go together - whatever they didn't make up with one they made up with the others and different strategies would lead to the same output. Still though, with 3 PSI I'd argue they took the easy route and mostly cranked up the boost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrx1234 View Post
    I never attributed gains to my boost pressure. I was just responding to his comment on what boost he was he peaked at with stage one... he then pointed that he noticed a significant bump at stage 2. I was just commenting that i peak at 18.5 and that i still think the increase from stock to stage 1 is greater than stage 1 to stage 2.
    That is easily confirmed for a 2011 WRX.

    It is 13.5% for stage I, then an additional only1.5% for stage II
    Last edited by mycologist; 03-25-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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  4. #18
    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax
    Nope, I'm referring to the change from Stock to Stage 1

    I'm sure that the timing/fueling enhancements have a much greater impact on the increase in output over the increase in boost pressure.
    Without access to the mapping, I'm with myco on this one. I'd be curious to see plots of Boost / Ignition Timing of a stock vs S1 car, but I'd say most of the power increase came from boost.
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  5. #19
    zax
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    It has been a very long time since I've run a stage 1 map, but I recall that the Cobb map runs only a 1.0 PSI bump in boost pressure (13.5 -> 14.5) and significantly more aggressive timing for 2.0L. I'll see if I can pull up the map today. Granted stage 1 only bumps output from 170whp to a quoted 195whp.

    But I think we are all in agreement that it's a combination of timing, boost, and fueling (since all are interrelated) that produces the power gains. I would take the personal approach of optimizing VE and tuning timing more towards MBT, but classically it seems Cobb has had the tactic of ramping boost, running the car pig rich, and tuning the timing to make it all work... different avenues I suppose.

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    Registered User Mike193's Avatar
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    As far as boost goes, I've been pushing 18 since stage 1 and 19 since stage 2. Not sure if 19 is boost creep but the car is on the low wastegate duty and going for protune soon

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike193 View Post
    As far as boost goes, I've been pushing 18 since stage 1 and 19 since stage 2. Not sure if 19 is boost creep but the car is on the low wastegate duty and going for protune soon
    Boost creep would be towards (or at) redline for you. If you are at 19psi at redline... you got some issues.

    As for the original topic, you'll need a tune for headers. Your timing, fueling (VE increases/decreases), and boost dynamics will all drastically change. You may be able to drive over there without much of a problem, but I wouldn't risk it considering how easy headers are to throw on (if everything fits). You may be running pretty lean towards cruising loads/RPMs.
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  8. #22
    zax
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    Alright, I just pulled the maps for the 2003 2.0L stock and stage 1 (Cobb). Looks like Cobb runs LESS timing at peak torque for the stage one map with a bump to 15 PSI. So indeed you are correct, it looks like the power gains from the Cobb stage 1 are primarily due to a boost pressure increase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
    Boost creep would be towards (or at) redline for you. If you are at 19psi at redline... you got some issues.
    Thankfully it spikes to 19 as soon as i hit boost, not at redline.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike193 View Post
    Thankfully it spikes to 19 as soon as i hit boost, not at redline.
    A spike is a spike.

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  11. #25
    Registered User Mike193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    A spike is a spike.

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    exactly what I had thought and thats why I'm confused as to how the RPM has to do with it.

  12. #26
    zax
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike193 View Post
    exactly what I had thought and thats why I'm confused as to how the RPM has to do with it.
    Boost spiking and boost creep are entirely different issues with entirely different root causes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike193 View Post
    exactly what I had thought and thats why I'm confused as to how the RPM has to do with it.
    A "spike" can be caused by a tuning mistake. Boost creep is caused by a mechanical issue. In the newer cars, you won't really see boost creep issues until high into the rev band in my experience. A car with boost creep will typically have boost spikes as well, due to the difficulty in modulating boost.

    Different issues. I didn't want you spending $700 on an EWG kit or taking a dremel to your wastegate or anything like that to fix your "boost creep", when in fact it was just a poor quality tune for your car.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
    A "spike" can be caused by a tuning mistake. Boost creep is caused by a mechanical issue. In the newer cars, you won't really see boost creep issues until high into the rev band in my experience. A car with boost creep will typically have boost spikes as well, due to the difficulty in modulating boost.

    Different issues. I didn't want you spending $700 on an EWG kit or taking a dremel to your wastegate or anything like that to fix your "boost creep", when in fact it was just a poor quality tune for your car.
    Thanks for the clarification, and I appreciate it. I was planning on the pro-tune to solve it, and if it wasn't changed then I would look further into it. So it's because im on the cobb OTS tune?

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike193 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification, and I appreciate it. I was planning on the pro-tune to solve it, and if it wasn't changed then I would look further into it. So it's because im on the cobb OTS tune?
    A pro tune will not "fix" boost creep. It is a mechanical problem.

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  16. #30
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    I prefer the use of "mechanical boost creep" to distinguish it from boost creep caused by tuning issues (which I would still call "boost creep").
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