How much boost will the 11's - 13's turbo efficiently produce? - Page 3
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This is a discussion on How much boost will the 11's - 13's turbo efficiently produce? within the Engine Modifications forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by EJ257 I'm lost on how a set of headers is "too much trouble"... I'll just leave this ...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    I'm lost on how a set of headers is "too much trouble"...

    I'll just leave this here:
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    It was my understanding that doing this was a lot more trouble where the motor had to be jacked up and such? It doesn't LOOK like a hard mod to do... the other thing would be sound.. I don't have a CBE because I was told and have seen very little gains from it, but I also wanted to keep away from the car being to loud... so how loud are they?
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  3. #32
    Luke Skywalker Mikie13's Avatar
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    CBE doesn't affect performance at all...its a noise maker, or a noise controller depending on how you look at it. Headers won't provide too much in the way of overall sound because like I said, CBE and more specifically the axleback portion of that control most of the sound.

    Headers and a downpipe (and the tune for them) are where power gains are really seen.
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Jacking up the motor is for removing the uppipe (which I had no problem with doing even though it was basically the first time I had ever worked on a car).


    Aftermarket headers shouldn't change the exhaust volume much. .if anything it should make it quieter, especially if you go with a quality ELH. When switching headers the first most noticable change for me was how my car idled so much smoother and quieter.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    Jacking up the motor is for removing the uppipe (which I had no problem with doing even though it was basically the first time I had ever worked on a car).


    Aftermarket headers shouldn't change the exhaust volume much. .if anything it should make it quieter, especially if you go with a quality ELH. When switching headers the first most noticable change for me was how my car idled so much smoother and quieter.
    Oh, I see you're point. If you purchase a set of ELH that retains the stock UP, you don't have to change out the UP. Or, if you already have an aftermarket UP, the motor does not need to be jacked up to remove the UP.
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    so does the uppipe need to be changed at the same time? Are the gains from it worth it I guess is what i'm asking? Which of the headers are the best for the money? Does everybody recommend wrapping them as well? I've heard it's a good way for them to get rusted pretty fast.
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    On your car, the uppipe doesn't need to be changed. There are some gains to be had with an aftermarket uppipe, but I probably wouldn't bother with it unless you're wanting EWG or rotated turbo fitment.

    I would wrap them. . Any decent header should not rust, regardless, you should still spray the wrap with silicone sealant.


    Which one to get depends on if you want UEL or EL ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    On your car, the uppipe doesn't need to be changed. There are some gains to be had with an aftermarket uppipe, but I probably wouldn't bother with it unless you're wanting EWG or rotated turbo fitment.

    I would wrap them. . Any decent header should not rust, regardless, you should still spray the wrap with silicone sealant.


    Which one to get depends on if you want UEL or EL ..
    What's the difference on installation? Performance?
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  9. #38
    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Install should be basically the same. In theory (and most real world results) equal length should net better performance. It should be mentioned that equal length headers will completely change the exhaust sound of your car. It will sound more like a regular 4 cylinder instead of the signature Subaru rumble.

    For equal length I would go with Perrin or KillerB. I personally have the Perrin ELH on my car and I'm happy with it. GTSpec makes a good UEL header, but their uppipe flange is a three bolt design (which is actually better). So you have to use the GTSpec three bolt uppipe with it. That Invidia UEL header looks pretty good too.

  10. #39
    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    I have the invidia EL headers, and am happy with them. They sell a few variants - make sure to get the normal "race" variety if you go that route. They have one with larger primaries (would not recommend) as well as one that includes the up pipe (also would not recommend). One of them may have a 3 bolt up pipe flange as well (watch out for those if you want to keep the stock up pipe or go to an EWG setup down the road)

    The KillerB and FullRace ones are really the top of the line ones. They are both made with 321 Stainless I believe (I know KillerBs are) which is a much better metal for headers on a turbo car. The standard stainless is more prone to cracking over time. Downside of 321... it's about twice the price. KillerBs headers include the up pipe by the way.

    Another perk of going with a set of aftermarket headers, which isn't commonly thought of, is the (large) weight reduction off of the very front of the car. The cast iron headers and thick heat shields weigh a TON compared to the stainless headers. Our cars are front heavy pigs (and that's the nice way of putting it) and getting as much weight off the front is worth its weight in gold.

    Equal Length headers will drastically change the sound of your car. It won't "rumble" and it will be much smoother. The performance gains are clear though - it's a much more efficient system. The gains on a Subaru can be related to going to a twin scroll setup on most turbo cars (due to the long length of the manifold before the turbine - not a good thing, but can't do much at this point).

    You'll clearly need a tune for the headers. I'd recommend going with a down pipe (catted if you aren't looking to go EWG) at the same time and getting a professional tune. Once you change out the headers, you are out of OTS (off the shelf) tunes in my opinion. I wouldn't go "e-tune", either.

    I wrapped mine. I dunno if they are rusting. Don't really care much. I'd recommend getting them sprayed with a heat insulating ceramic coating. By the time you buy enough quality exhaust wrap and CV clamps (highly recommended as opposed to worm clamps)... you'll find the cost difference isn't quite as steep for a better end product.

    EDIT: Also, don't forget about gaskets! The connections down there vary greatly in temperature frequently. The seals are critical, and the gaskets should NOT be re-used. I would get new gaskets for engine to header (possibly included with headers) and I would actually get TWO header to up pipe gaskets in case the fitment isn't perfect. Without a flex joint in there, you may need that extra 1/64" compression to get a good confident seal.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
    I have the invidia EL headers, and am happy with them. They sell a few variants - make sure to get the normal "race" variety if you go that route. They have one with larger primaries (would not recommend) as well as one that includes the up pipe (also would not recommend). One of them may have a 3 bolt up pipe flange as well (watch out for those if you want to keep the stock up pipe or go to an EWG setup down the road)

    The KillerB and FullRace ones are really the top of the line ones. They are both made with 321 Stainless I believe (I know KillerBs are) which is a much better metal for headers on a turbo car. The standard stainless is more prone to cracking over time. Downside of 321... it's about twice the price. KillerBs headers include the up pipe by the way.

    Another perk of going with a set of aftermarket headers, which isn't commonly thought of, is the (large) weight reduction off of the very front of the car. The cast iron headers and thick heat shields weigh a TON compared to the stainless headers. Our cars are front heavy pigs (and that's the nice way of putting it) and getting as much weight off the front is worth its weight in gold.

    Equal Length headers will drastically change the sound of your car. It won't "rumble" and it will be much smoother. The performance gains are clear though - it's a much more efficient system. The gains on a Subaru can be related to going to a twin scroll setup on most turbo cars (due to the long length of the manifold before the turbine - not a good thing, but can't do much at this point).

    You'll clearly need a tune for the headers. I'd recommend going with a down pipe (catted if you aren't looking to go EWG) at the same time and getting a professional tune. Once you change out the headers, you are out of OTS (off the shelf) tunes in my opinion. I wouldn't go "e-tune", either.

    I wrapped mine. I dunno if they are rusting. Don't really care much. I'd recommend getting them sprayed with a heat insulating ceramic coating. By the time you buy enough quality exhaust wrap and CV clamps (highly recommended as opposed to worm clamps)... you'll find the cost difference isn't quite as steep for a better end product.

    EDIT: Also, don't forget about gaskets! The connections down there vary greatly in temperature frequently. The seals are critical, and the gaskets should NOT be re-used. I would get new gaskets for engine to header (possibly included with headers) and I would actually get TWO header to up pipe gaskets in case the fitment isn't perfect. Without a flex joint in there, you may need that extra 1/64" compression to get a good confident seal.
    I actually already have a catless dp, but oe cbe. This will be a ways down the road when money is a bit better, I'm just trying to figure out what to get now to know what to put away for and how much. The custom tune thing sucks though. A lot of money there.
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  12. #41
    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    You might want to consider going ahead and running EWG to avoid boost creep issues with the catless downpipe.

    Custom tune isn't THAT costly. .$300-$500 depending on the tuner. Pretty inexpensive considering it's the most important part of any mod path.

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    Master Baiter EJ257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264
    Once you change out the headers, you are out of OTS (off the shelf) tunes in my opinion. I wouldn't go "e-tune", either.
    Depending on location and who you have available for doing tuning, a real e-mail tune isn't a bad option, as long as the tuner has access to the necessary parameters like WBO2 readings. I much prefer being in the car when tuning it, but I can get something close just with logs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame
    I would wrap them. . Any decent header should not rust, regardless, you should still spray the wrap with silicone sealant.
    Some wraps are not meant to be used with any kind of a sealant spray (e.g., the Titanium wraps that use Lava Rock). If I were wrapping an exhaust part, I would go with that type.

    Quote Originally Posted by DEI
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame
    Which one to get depends on if you want UEL or EL ..
    I don't see a point in UEL. If you're going to spend the money for a set of headers, get the benefit of going EL.
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  14. #43
    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Good info about the wrap type and use of spray. .


    I agree with the ELH or none at all statement.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical4u View Post
    I actually already have a catless dp, but oe cbe. This will be a ways down the road when money is a bit better, I'm just trying to figure out what to get now to know what to put away for and how much. The custom tune thing sucks though. A lot of money there.
    I'd be surprised if you aren't already having boost creep issues. If you are considering a turbo down the road, that should cover the boost creep issue. If not, I'd look towards an EWG setup.

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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ257 View Post
    Depending on location and who you have available for doing tuning, a real e-mail tune isn't a bad option, as long as the tuner has access to the necessary parameters like WBO2 readings. I much prefer being in the car when tuning it, but I can get something close just with logs.
    If you have a good tuner that is willing to be patient, I'd say go for it. When I said e-tune, I was referring more to a generic OTS e-tune. Some e-tunes are more like a professional tune in all honesty. I'm sure the tune I have done to my car is no different than a patient e-tuner. Keep in mind, after going EWG, EBCS, and ELH, your boost system is much more dynamic. It gets pretty tough to tune nice, even with an EWG. That's not a bad thing... dynamic is good =).

    I agree that I would NOT go any farther without some way of getting wb02 readings. If you get a dyno tune, they may have one there for your exhaust pipe. Personally, I'd buy one. They are a good (and critical in my opinion) safety check and troubleshooting tool.

    DEI has suggested using their spray UNDER the titanium wrap before. I believe it helps with adhesion more than anything. +1 on not using it over their wrap, however. The wrap is good stuff. As per a recommendation from Torque, I'd get a CV clamp tool and some large CV clamps to help with wrapping. Price wise its not much worse than using worm clamps. I can get you part numbers if you need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    He was throwing balloons filled with sulfuric acid and shrapnel at the swat team. They finally had to take him down with rubber bullets.
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