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This is a discussion on Intake issue on a 2013 wrx within the Engine Modifications forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Vacuum leak...

  1. #16
    Registered User starkall's Avatar
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    Intake issue on a 2013 wrx

    Vacuum leak

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  3. #17
    Registered User Axex's Avatar
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    Yea I've talked to other owners in person that said they installed it without recalibrating and their cars didn't run right after. These engines are just touchy I guess.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamahar6311 View Post
    And how does this mean a number of things? It's an in your face answer. It's a 2013. Not a 1993, what the hell else could it be???
    For example, it could mean a dirty MAF. The Cobb SF intake is an oiled filter. The oil can coat the MAF sensor and cause it to read incorrectly. Do you know how a narrowband (Nernst Cell) O2 sensor works? It does determine the AFR directly. Instead, it will read either lean or rich in a boolean measurement. When in closed loop, it will inject X amount of fuel with IDC. If the O2 says "lean," it will inject a little more fuel X+n until the mixture is rich now Y IDC. At this point, it will inject a little less fuel during each injector event Y-n until the O2 sensor reads lean. So the car will run a little rich and a little lean cyclicly. So the ECU may make the judgement "too lean" if after N amount of adjustments, the O2 sensor still reads lean. However, you cannot say with completely certainty just how lean the car runs. This may be due to a few primary problems:
    1.) MAF scaling like you said (MAF is not properly reading the amount of air into the engine)
    2.) MAF sensor malfunction -- MAF sensor is wet (typically runs rich) from rain or coated with oil from filter
    3.) O2 sensor malfunction -- Closed loop O2 sensor is not reading correctly
    4.) Boost leak or pre-turbo vacuum leak -- this will cause unmetered air to enter the engine. Also, you may see rich conditions when running a VTA BOV.

    FWIW, I have run a Cobb SF intake with the stock tune and no issues. It is unlikely that any intake will change the MAF scaling to the point that it will run so lean as to damage the engine. There are a few that will run lean, but the Cobb SF intake has been shown in the past only to alter the MAF scaling by a small margin. Don't believe me? Give your local tuner a call and ask him/her to provide the MAF scaling tables for two cars with equal modifications, one with the stock airbox and the other with the SF intake. I'll bet that you'll see my point.
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  5. #19
    Registered User starkall's Avatar
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    Intake issue on a 2013 wrx

    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    For example, it could mean a dirty MAF. The Cobb SF intake is an oiled filter. The oil can coat the MAF sensor and cause it to read incorrectly. Do you know how a narrowband (Nernst Cell) O2 sensor works? It does determine the AFR directly. Instead, it will read either lean or rich in a boolean measurement. When in closed loop, it will inject X amount of fuel with IDC. If the O2 says "lean," it will inject a little more fuel X+n until the mixture is rich now Y IDC. At this point, it will inject a little less fuel during each injector event Y-n until the O2 sensor reads lean. So the car will run a little rich and a little lean cyclicly. So the ECU may make the judgement "too lean" if after N amount of adjustments, the O2 sensor still reads lean. However, you cannot say with completely certainty just how lean the car runs. This may be due to a few primary problems:
    1.) MAF scaling like you said (MAF is not properly reading the amount of air into the engine)
    2.) MAF sensor malfunction -- MAF sensor is wet (typically runs rich) from rain or coated with oil from filter
    3.) O2 sensor malfunction -- Closed loop O2 sensor is not reading correctly
    4.) Boost leak or pre-turbo vacuum leak -- this will cause unmetered air to enter the engine. Also, you may see rich conditions when running a VTA BOV.

    FWIW, I have run a Cobb SF intake with the stock tune and no issues. It is unlikely that any intake will change the MAF scaling to the point that it will run so lean as to damage the engine. There are a few that will run lean, but the Cobb SF intake has been shown in the past only to alter the MAF scaling by a small margin. Don't believe me? Give your local tuner a call and ask him/her to provide the MAF scaling tables for two cars with equal modifications, one with the stock airbox and the other with the SF intake. I'll bet that you'll see my point.
    I concur

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    Registered User ShiftySooner's Avatar
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    The SF absolutely requires a tune. I have a 2013 (purchased 9/28/12), and ordered the SF plus air box, Cobb downpipe, AP, and some other goodies....all in anticipation of OTS tunes. Got a little anxious, and after the 1000 mile break in, installed the intake just to see what I see. At around 4K, the car ramps up to a little over 17 psi, hits the overboost fuel cut, and stutters for a sec or two before it adjusts and picks back up (just like you're experiencing, I'm sure). The ECU is reading so much more air it has no idea what to do, so it cuts fuel and boost. Just stay out of boost, and it will drive fine, or do like advised and re-install the factory parts for a few more weeks. It took roughly 1 month for Cobb to release the first OTS maps for the 2012, so i'm anticipating roughly the same (though I really have no idea).
    Last edited by ShiftySooner; 11-06-2012 at 06:10 PM.

  7. #21
    zax
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftySooner View Post
    The SF absolutely requires a tune.
    I see this stated with absolution, feeling your confidence, and yet I see no supporting data. So lets dispense with the opinions and accept this entirely as speculation. Now, if someone with a 2010+ (Shawn Mangan to the front please) would please load the Stage 1 map with Stock Airbox and Stage 1 map with SF intake and lets have a look at the MAF scaling.
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  8. #22
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    Sorry, I should rephrase.....My particular WRX, with a SF plus air box, requires tuning to run properly. Disclaimer: I can not predict how yours will run, results my vary.

    That said, anecdotal evidence supports tuning is not only suggested, but required.

  9. #23
    zax
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftySooner View Post
    Sorry, I should rephrase.....My particular WRX, with a SF plus air box, requires tuning to run properly. Disclaimer: I can not predict how yours will run, results my vary.

    That said, anecdotal evidence supports tuning is not only suggested, but required.
    Correlation =/= Causation
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  10. #24
    Registered User ShiftySooner's Avatar
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    True enough, one does not imply the other. However, while only changing one variable (the intake), one can deduce that the intake is directly related to poor performance and current condition.

    But you are correct, I have no MAF tables to prove this....I will have to wait for tuning to become available, then I'll report back.

  11. #25
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    FWIW, I'm not arguing that one should not tune for an intake. If you reread my previous posts, you'd realize I am 100% an advocate of the "you install a part, you tune for the change" philosophy. However, I'm not convinced that the SF intake (which has been designed to mimic stock airflow characteristics, thus allowing AFR Learning to account for the extra air) causes the car to run dangerously lean to the point of potential engine damage. OTOH, if supporting data can be provided, I will gladly change my perception.
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  12. #26
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    Nor am I arguing. I am certainly no tuning expert, a novice in fact. I don't think a dangerously lean condition is occurring either, but something is happening. With stock air box, boost peaked at 15, and would taper down quickly to the set point of 14.2. With the SF intake, it now peaks at slightly over 17, at which point the stuttering occurs, which Cobb techs (on their forums) explain as the overboost fuel cut. This only happens at WOT, mind you, when peak boost can be achieved. Modest acceleration is ok, but where's the fun in that!?!

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    Bah, I hate when I miss threads and have to quote 30 people.

    I'd like to start off saying that I'm a huge fan of saying that an intake really should have a tune on the newer cars.

    1.) By default, once you hit open loop fueling, it continues to apply a learning trim percentage fuel trim that was learned in a normally lower load range (depending on your tune, of course). The percentage does not apply evenly across loads. For example, at idle, you may need a 3% correction to get to a stoich mixture in eyes of the ECU. At wide open throttle (WOT), that 3% difference can mean the difference between 11afr and about 11.5afr. I know the car won't apply the trim learned at idle (low load range) to the WOT range, but the same issue occurs over the range of A/F Learning D.

    2.) Boost response. I'm not sure of the effects of the intake directly on your cars boost response. I'd bet that the turbo is more responsive, and possibly at the limits of the ECUs turbo dynamics tables - meaning the ECU is maxing out it's boost correction ability. This shouldn't cause the "system lean" code, however.

    3.) Slight differences between intake systems.. even with the same "MAF housing diameter". Every intake handles air a bit differently at various speeds. My KSTech intake (stock sized MAF housing) looked great as far as A/F learning & correction went at lower loads. It was in the 2.0+ load range where I started to see some fairly substantial variances from the stock intake. I may be able to kick up a graph somewhere or dig through for my scaling changes. For the record, A/F Learning D would never have picked up those differences since I would have been in open loop fueling long before that load range. This could cause a "system lean" issue.

    4.) Everything else aside, the intake could have a mechanical problem associated with it. Boost/vacuum leaks aren't uncommon. Putting the MAF sensor in backwards is not unheard of (even though it doesn't in that direction I believe). If it is an oiled filter... the MAF could be oiled as well now.

    Keep in mind, all cars are using a generic tune from the factory. Your car may have been at the very edge of that tune (for better or worse). The more you modify your car, the further you risk leaving that nice "generic" WRX that Subaru used to generate their tunes.



    That being said:
    Quote Originally Posted by starkall View Post
    Cobb has stated that a tune is not required for their intake but highly recommended to get the power gains of the intake. Rallysport direct says the same. As long as the intake has the same size Maf tube it'll be ok but I still recommend a tune to get the performance gains of the intake.
    I could see merit in that statement. I disagree the MAF scaling will be the same. Whether it is dangerously far off, who knows. It's easy to verify that with a wideband o2 and both intakes.


    Quote Originally Posted by starkall View Post
    You can run the SF intake without a tune and it will be fine. But it provide no performance gains and be a just a noise maker until tuned.
    Not every car is a like. Nor is every mechanic. For whatever reason, the OP had issues regarding his. Whether it was directly caused by the intake, we don't know, but we can speculate.


    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Do you have a wideband O2 sensor installed? If not, you cannot make this judgement. A "System too lean" can mean a number of things.
    Yup. Especially in those load ranges. The narrowband sensor becomes useless once you hit boost.... which is where you start to care that your afrs are out of comfortable range.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yamahar6311 View Post
    And how does this mean a number of things? It's an in your face answer. It's a 2013. Not a 1993, what the hell else could it be???
    Could mean various things. I'm not up to snuff with the "system lean" code, but for example, look at adding a high flow down pipe. That throws codes which appear to be "in your face answers"... when they really aren't. Poor catalytic converter efficiency could be triggered by having additional air passing the rear o2 sensor, as opposed to having 'polluted' air passing the rear o2 sensor. These codes are assuming a car with stock hardware. They are allowed to make assumptions when they build the car.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftySooner View Post
    The SF absolutely requires a tune. I have a 2013 (purchased 9/28/12), and ordered the SF plus air box, Cobb downpipe, AP, and some other goodies....all in anticipation of OTS tunes. Got a little anxious, and after the 1000 mile break in, installed the intake just to see what I see. At around 4K, the car ramps up to a little over 17 psi, hits the overboost fuel cut, and stutters for a sec or two before it adjusts and picks back up (just like you're experiencing, I'm sure). The ECU is reading so much more air it has no idea what to do, so it cuts fuel and boost. Just stay out of boost, and it will drive fine, or do like advised and re-install the factory parts for a few more weeks. It took roughly 1 month for Cobb to release the first OTS maps for the 2012, so i'm anticipating roughly the same (though I really have no idea).
    That's quite over confident, as stated. While I have my opinions on the matter, these cars always manage to surprise me somehow.

    You'll know when the ECU is reading too much air though. You'll get a "MAF sensor" OBDII code... showing you pulled 5V on the sensor. You won't hit that with an intake unless you've fouled up the MAF sensor. Which I have in my experience. Every time it rained or I got my car washed and hit boost that'd happen. Otherwise... the ECU will use it's highest load range values for timing/fueling/etc when it runs off of the table in the tune. You shouldn't be running that far off the table for it to make a huge impact.

    Over boosting is a legit issue though. I thought whenever it through a fuel cut of any sorts you got an OBDII reminder, however. Tuning a catless car with the IWG makes you very familiar with this OBDII code. There are some 'soft' boost cuts to my understanding. If you pick up X amount of detonation, the car will pull boost to the best of it's abilities (normally 7 psi). I don't know whether a detonation invoked boost cut throws a code.


    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    I see this stated with absolution, feeling your confidence, and yet I see no supporting data. So lets dispense with the opinions and accept this entirely as speculation. Now, if someone with a 2010+ (Shawn Mangan to the front please) would please load the Stage 1 map with Stock Airbox and Stage 1 map with SF intake and lets have a look at the MAF scaling.
    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    Correlation =/= Causation
    I will dig up an example of my KSTech intake vs the stock if I can find it. They claimed it didn't need a tune due to the same diameter MAF housing. It did. Cobb I am sure put in some additional engineering time though.


    I wish no manufacturer would claim that their intakes are "stock tune safe". Stop wasting engineering time on them... put a tube with a smooth MAF curve together.. and sell it for cheaper. You really should get a wide band o2 once you start altering air/fuel values in a car outside of manufacturer specs in my opinion. You are a blind man otherwise.
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  14. #28
    Moderator Donkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vu_tang View Post
    Your ECU doesn't know what to do with all the extra air.
    ..............ok.

    First thing I would have done was contact Cobb about the issue.............common sense yes?
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    I'm not going to the trouble to read.. but I can tell you what I would and wouldn't do. I wouldn't change intakes on my car without data logging (no matter which intake it is). And if I saw something in the logs I didn't like, I would have the car tuned.. honestly, I would have the car tuned for the intake regardless, otherwise what's the point of installing it? But I certainly would not just run an intake without at least pulling a few logs to make sure it's okay, and I would never recommend someone else to do so.

  16. #30
    Registered User vu_tang's Avatar
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    Intake issue on a 2013 wrx

    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
    ..............ok.

    First thing I would have done was contact Cobb about the issue.............common sense yes?
    No, why contact cobb when it clearly states on their web page that any Subaru 2008+ with an intake need a tune..

    http://www.cobbtuning.com/Subaru-SF-...t-p/715300.htm

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