Fuel pump, injectors, TGV deletes and TD04 19T - Page 3
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This is a discussion on Fuel pump, injectors, TGV deletes and TD04 19T within the Engine Modifications forums, part of the Tech & Modifying & General Repairs category; Originally Posted by Sasquatch No worries. I am enjoying the discussion. You bastages have given me more to think about. ...

  1. #31
    Registered User c2bcoolwrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    No worries. I am enjoying the discussion.

    You bastages have given me more to think about. At this point I am 96% certain I will be going with the Blouch TD05H-16G. You all suck! (not really). Thanks for making me $pend more $.
    Haha, you may spend more money now but in the long run if you upgraded the TD04 you would just have to replace it. You really should consider the Evo3 16g as IMHO that is the best all round match for the 2.0L. But, even the standard 16g will be worlds better than the TD04.

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  3. #32
    Moderator   Sasquatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c2bcoolwrx View Post
    Haha, you may spend more money now but in the long run if you upgraded the TD04 you would just have to replace it. You really should consider the Evo3 16g as IMHO that is the best all round match for the 2.0L. But, even the standard 16g will be worlds better than the TD04.
    I've been at this for awhile now and have learned a thing or two. As long as I have the intake manifold off I figure a turbo swap will get no easier. Blouch has the perfect solution at this time. Having done 1 turbo swap I am confident I can do the job with less fuss when the intake is off.
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  4. #33
    Registered User poly_poly-man's Avatar
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    I was looking into 16g's, but I realized that there's a pretty big line of IHI offerings that seems to spool quicker and give a little more top end - even discounting the twin-scroll lineup. Seriously, if you can find a vf36, DO EET!!!!
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  5. #34
    Registered User c2bcoolwrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poly_poly-man View Post
    I was looking into 16g's, but I realized that there's a pretty big line of IHI offerings that seems to spool quicker and give a little more top end - even discounting the twin-scroll lineup. Seriously, if you can find a vf36, DO EET!!!!
    No IHI turbo I know of will have a better top end then a 16g, single scroll for sure don't. IHI turbos are not easily rebuildable or not rebuildable at all. Also, if you go twin scroll you will have to get a twin scroll manifold which can get expensive. For ease of upgrade a 16g is a much better option for most than a twin scroll. IHI/VF series turbos are just not that good IMHO.

    I suggest you do more research.
    Last edited by c2bcoolwrx; 07-01-2011 at 10:16 PM.

  6. #35
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    I've been at this for awhile now and have learned a thing or two. As long as I have the intake manifold off I figure a turbo swap will get no easier. Blouch has the perfect solution at this time. Having done 1 turbo swap I am confident I can do the job with less fuss when the intake is off.
    I'd get the 16g-XT from blouch
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  7. #36
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
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    On the topic of cfm/psi/etc....

    I understand your thought of how a certain pressure should produce the same amount of air crammed into the cylinder. It's not correct though.

    It's all about several factors, but specifically efficiency. A small turbine (td04) is efficient in the lower RPMs because of the vane shape, and it gets matched to the amount of exhaust gas that is coming out of the engine. A larger turbine (td06) will match better and be more efficient with an engine that is putting out more exhaust gas. That's why you can run a bigger turbo with a similar spool on a larger displacement engine vs a smaller engine.

    On the compressor side of the turbo, you have a very similar thing happening. We aren't as concerned about PSI as much as we are flow. Pressure is read at the end of the compressor nozzle. If a turbo with the same amount of CFM's at the same engine RPM on the same engine displacement is on a car with a PNP intake manifold, and TGV deletes you'll still be flowing the same amount into the engine and get similar power. Therefore the turbo is able to run with the same CFM at a lower PSI. That efficiency translates in the ability to raise the PSI and gain additional CFM.

    CFM produces power. PSI doesn't. Additional PSI will produce CFM... to a point. At some point the turbo isn't able to compress the air as efficiently and that's where you start to lose CFM. On the same note, a turbo that's efficiency is in the higher PSI range that's only producing a low amount of PSI won't be able to function as well, and won't produce power as easily, and may actually hinder your power. It isn't linear though, and it depends fully on the CFM's each of those turbos is able to produce at specific boost levels.

    The numbers you see on websites (ie 450cfm @20PSI) is actually the amount of air that is being pushed out of the turbo at a given PSI. It's not how much air is able to reach the engine. That's why TGV deletes are such a great upgrade... You may only be getting 400cfm at the heads due to restrictions throughout the post turbo intake system... but when you start removing obstructions/restrictions like the TGV butterfly valve, you start allowing that turbo to "breathe easier" meaning flow more at the end point... (ie 410cfm) All of these numbers are made up though. I don't have any air metering device

    None of this discussion has included anything about heat. Heat completely adds a whole new component to the ball game regarding PSI and flow characteristics. I'm not going to go into it though... I've already typed entirely too much.

    If any of this made sense, I'm glad. If not, feel free to PM me or we can start a full blown thread regarding this. I love physics if you can't tell.
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  8. #37
    Moderator Donkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd92677 View Post
    If thats true I'm going to dismiss it as one of those things that are fact and I have no idea why which doesn't happen often so thanks a lot!!
    This might help explain it more in depth and with pictures!: Stealth 316 - Turbocharger Compressor Flow Maps
    Last edited by Donkey; 07-03-2011 at 07:21 AM.
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  9. #38
    UnBanned Sinister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
    This might help explain it more in depth and with pictures!: Stealth 316 - Turbocharger Compressor Flow Maps
    I wrote my "dissertation" last night after a few beers... but you know more about this stuff Ron. How spot on is my understanding of this?
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  10. #39
    Moderator Donkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    I wrote my "dissertation" last night after a few beers... but you know more about this stuff Ron. How spot on is my understanding of this?
    Pretty spot on. I think the hard thing to keep in mind is that a turbocharged engine is not like a tire or a sealed container. You just don't fill it with a certain volume of air and then it sits under pressure. Air is constantly moving at different speeds and volumes. A good way to understand this is to look at a two datalogs of the same cars. Lets say same exact mods but one log has a smaller turbo and one has a larger turbo. Both run at 1 bar. Just by looking at the G/S and the MAF voltage you can see how much more air is moving with the bigger turbo even at the same pressure. When the turbo is to big you get a phenomenon know as "compressor surge".
    Last edited by Donkey; 07-04-2011 at 06:18 AM.
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  11. #40
    Registered User poly_poly-man's Avatar
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    I totally understand that this happens, but I'm still completely lost as to why...

    I'm trying to think on a small scale for this - you're at a (theoretical) point in the cycle of your engine at which no intake valves are open (but one is about to). The turbo has filled the intake system full of enough air that it is at a certain absolute pressure - let's say 1 bar relative, so about 29psi total pressure on the intake manifold. Currently, that cylinder that's about to open is nearing TDC, so it's losing nearly all of its volume (although you'd still expect the pressure to be somewhere close to 1 bar). The intake valve opens, and the piston begins its descent down towards BDC. you've got an initial influx of air from the pressurized manifold, as well as more air coming in as the open cylinder area expands. The amount of air going in is characterized by the force on the opening (which is the difference of the pressure in the intake and the pressure in the cylinder), which, because of how pressure works, is dependent only on pressure, because at this point pressure is pressure.

    The only way this makes sense in my head is if a better flowing turbo can better keep the pressure up to its pre-valve-opening status (as in, the pressure's going to drop over the course of an intake stroke, a bigger turbo is better able to make up for this), but even that's not 100% convincing...

    Can anyone give a better explanation (preferribly the correct explanation)?
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  12. #41
    Registered User irvin787878's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poly_poly-man View Post
    I totally understand that this happens, but I'm still completely lost as to why...

    I'm trying to think on a small scale for this - you're at a (theoretical) point in the cycle of your engine at which no intake valves are open (but one is about to). The turbo has filled the intake system full of enough air that it is at a certain absolute pressure - let's say 1 bar relative, so about 29psi total pressure on the intake manifold. Currently, that cylinder that's about to open is nearing TDC, so it's losing nearly all of its volume (although you'd still expect the pressure to be somewhere close to 1 bar). The intake valve opens, and the piston begins its descent down towards BDC. you've got an initial influx of air from the pressurized manifold, as well as more air coming in as the open cylinder area expands. The amount of air going in is characterized by the force on the opening (which is the difference of the pressure in the intake and the pressure in the cylinder), which, because of how pressure works, is dependent only on pressure, because at this point pressure is pressure.

    The only way this makes sense in my head is if a better flowing turbo can better keep the pressure up to its pre-valve-opening status (as in, the pressure's going to drop over the course of an intake stroke, a bigger turbo is better able to make up for this), but even that's not 100% convincing...

    Can anyone give a better explanation (preferribly the correct explanation)?
    If I am wrong or way off I will shut up lol. Your cfm's of the turbo would help out here. Just because its a set psi doesnt mean it dont flow more air.
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  13. #42
    Registered User poly_poly-man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irvin787878 View Post
    If I am wrong or way off I will shut up lol. Your cfm's of the turbo would help out here. Just because its a set psi doesnt mean it dont flow more air.
    well, for a fixed VE, a fixed-size intake manifold, etc... how can more air flow through a hole that's constant in two cases with identical pressures?
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  14. #43
    Moderator   Sasquatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    I'd get the 16g-XT from blouch
    I'm already $pending more than I wanted to. The XT is another $255.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by poly_poly-man View Post
    well, for a fixed VE, a fixed-size intake manifold, etc... how can more air flow through a hole that's constant in two cases with identical pressures?
    The turbo thing to me is all new. If thats the case then what is the point of one turbo being able to push more cfm's than another? Am I way off in my thoughts?
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    I'm already $pending more than I wanted to. The XT is another $255.
    Your going to retune anyway.. I would go with the 16g as well.. Yea it's another 255 but worth it


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