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This is a discussion on Audiophiles: Stereo System Thoughts within the Electronics/Car Audio forums, part of the Interior Mods category; Originally Posted by GrtScott "RMS" = root mean square (very much electrical jargon) "Draw" = to cause to come out ...

  1. #16
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrtScott View Post
    "RMS" = root mean square (very much electrical jargon)

    "Draw" = to cause to come out of a container or source (just basic English)

    Adding "draw" to the sentence was probably redundant and a more technical term could have been used. Really I just wanted to emphasize that you want the wattage being drawn by the speakers to be even.

    But hey... at least I did not type in all caps and misspell every other word
    Thanks. I understand the individual terms however I see no rationale in the statement. What does "even" refer to? Speakers in this case are passive drivers that are driven by an amp and have power requirements that will vary for a given response due to the impedance curve of the system as a whole, their T/S parms, etc.

    If matching an amplifier's rated power output to a speaker's rated power handling is the concern, this becomes difficult because neither is likely to be useful as given from the manufacturer (especially in auto sound, a market that may lack the snake oil present in high end non-mobile audio but does not lack the sales teams with ambitious spec sheets etc.).

    In practice I don't see any of this as a concern in any case, as an amp that is clipping will be more of a worry to a driver than an amp that is capable of delivering clean power.
    Last edited by SD_GR; 07-15-2010 at 11:06 AM.
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  3. #17
    Registered User GrtScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    will vary for a given response due to the impedance curve of the system as a whole, their T/S parms, etc.
    Haha... that is wayyyyy over my head! Perhaps I should research this subject a little more.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    In practice I don't see any of this as a concern in any case, as an amp that is clipping will be more of a worry to a driver than an amp that is capable of delivering clean power.
    Because of this thread I have just now started reading about clipping. Very interesting how that all works.

    So now that I have filled my belly with crow I ask... what would be the equation to look for when putting together a car stereo system?

    I have been fortunate apparently in the past with my simple equation to add the max RMS values of the HU + amp to equal the max RMS of the speakers.

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    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    If there are reliable data available (say, a bench test) I'd use that to make sure the amp is capable of driving whatever drivers I've chosen to whatever output I'm interested in obtaining without clipping, and that the amp is at least theoretically stable at the minimum impedance presented by the system. The minimum impedance can and usually does differ from the nominal stated or even calculated impedance and is usually best seen by looking at an actual impedance curve for the assembled speaker system.

    Or just not worry about any of this.
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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Missed a car audio thread... Falling apart here. Darn jury duty.

    I like the system. I'm partial to Alpine head units. I don't know about their amps. I always go with any decent amp I can find a good deal on.

    As far as the power ratings go, it really depends on the amp and the speakers. Normally JL ratings are pretty spot on if I remember correctly.

    Make sure you follow RMS vs peak. sqrt(2) difference. Maybe sqrt(3)... I think sqrt(2) for power.



    My suggestion... Bag the back speakers. They are gonna clutter your sound stage. Put the money into the front speakers/tweeters (doesn't seem like you skimped though) and get what power you'd want out of the system. Also, consider going to an active crossover. Put your tweeters on preout, mids on another, and sub on the last. You really have a lot of flexibility that way and can tune out any dead frequencies in your car's acoustics.

    My $.02

    EDIT: Was thinking... I don't know anything about JLs tweeters. I assume they are pretty nice. JL has nicely rounded products that sound good... Not quite as good as you would assume from the price, but still good. For the money you are spending on this setup, you should look into different mounting options. Maybe kickpanel component mounts or similar. Maybe A-pillar mounts for the tweeters... Certain tweeters are only meant to be mounted a certain way in respect to the woofer. Just some food for thought. Sure it will sound great regardless.
    Last edited by Heide264; 07-19-2010 at 01:14 PM.
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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    EJ,

    Just curious what you ended up going with and how the project is going.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    He was throwing balloons filled with sulfuric acid and shrapnel at the swat team. They finally had to take him down with rubber bullets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264
    EJ,

    Just curious what you ended up going with and how the project is going.
    Haven't bought anything other than the sub, yet. I don't have the disposable income to drop $2000+ at once
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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Yeah, understandable. I'd upgrade in chunks if you don't have it all now. It will allow you to catch audio gremlins at each stage.

    I'd get the head unit and throw that in as soon as you can, and add the sub in. With the sub/hu/one amp, you can at least route out any possible gremlins involving power/ground. Just my thought on the matter. You can always do speakers and everything later. A lot of people put it all in at once and literally get ripped apart by ground whining gremlins.

    Maybe look into something other than JL for components. I like their woofers as far as sound quality goes. Very good build. I do think they are very over priced though. Do you have any high end audio stores around you? Might want to grab some good test tracks and camp out. Look for speakers with a nice flat response with your preference as to bright/dull. I really think you'll be surprised how nice a lot of them sound outside of JL especially considering the price range.

    What freq. he tune the sub box to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    He was throwing balloons filled with sulfuric acid and shrapnel at the swat team. They finally had to take him down with rubber bullets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264
    Yeah, understandable. I'd upgrade in chunks if you don't have it all now.
    That's the plan. Maybe by Christmas I can have everything stockpiled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264
    What freq. he tune the sub box to?
    Hasn't built it yet. I told him I'm in no rush (since without an amp, it's just a nice decoration to me).
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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Not a bad idea. I'd give the sub enclosure tuning some serious thought. You should pick it based off your music though. I like them tuned on the low end. High end will give you some more power, but doesn't sound as nice. Might as well go more towards the quality end if you are going with a sealed box anyhow.

    Keep an eye out on your local craigs list actually. Car stereo equipment doesn't matter if it is used normally, and you can get some steals. Not deals, but steals. I normally am hesitant about craigs list, but audio equipment is a big one for me.

    Any thought on ditching the back speakers and going with an active crossover for mids/highs/lows?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    He was throwing balloons filled with sulfuric acid and shrapnel at the swat team. They finally had to take him down with rubber bullets.
    2011 STi Build Log
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
    Keep an eye out on your local craigs list actually. Car stereo equipment doesn't matter if it is used normally, and you can get some steals. Not deals, but steals. I normally am hesitant about craigs list, but audio equipment is a big one for me.

    Any thought on ditching the back speakers and going with an active crossover for mids/highs/lows?


    Yea, you can literally get some steals.. as in, "I stole this sub out of some guys WRX last week and I'll sell it to you for cheap on craigs list".

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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
    Yea, you can literally get some steals.. as in, "I stole this sub out of some guys WRX last week and I'll sell it to you for cheap on craigs list".
    Didn't mean it like that, but many times people sell their audio equipment because they are getting a new car and dont feel like moving it around. I am sure there are the cases in which it wasn't obtained correctly, and you obviously have to be on the lookout.

    Most audio steals go on ebay I would think to avoid local sale.

    I am lucky my van has tinted windows after parking it in the city that long. My stuff is just in there for the taking, amp rack (incorrectly) velcro'd onto the sub and all for easy removal if I need to haul anything.

    I wouldn't hold it against craigs list. Still worth a look in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    He was throwing balloons filled with sulfuric acid and shrapnel at the swat team. They finally had to take him down with rubber bullets.
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    True, true.. but I'd still be weary of anything that seems to be priced a little too cheap. Or if the seller is acting sketchy at all.


    I've seen cases where someone had their stuff stolen and the very next day the thief had it up on craigs list trying to sell it locally. Remember, these aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Most people busting out car windows aren't smart enough to think they might get caught through the interwebs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SD_GR View Post
    In practice I don't see any of this as a concern in any case, as an amp that is clipping will be more of a worry to a driver than an amp that is capable of delivering clean power.
    Single best quote to think about when purchasing quality car audio products.

    It is 10x better to overpower a speaker than it is to underpower them.
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    Registered User Heide264's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikie13 View Post
    Single best quote to think about when purchasing quality car audio products.

    It is 10x better to overpower a speaker than it is to underpower them.
    I want to disagree a bit on this statement. It is important to give that statement some thought. It is bad to be sending a lot of clipped signals into a driver. True. That does not mean that you are under powering a driver, that means you are driving your amp too hard. If you set up your system correctly, and find a reasonably well matched amp for your drivers, set your gains correctly, you should not be driving your amp into clipping. Without a clipping amp, or an amp that has too much power for your drivers, you will have no worries.

    That being said, if you aren't a clown, you have no worries. My system is not set up perfectly level wise. It doesn't take much to tell when something is clipping or being driven past its point. Just use your head. The ratings are normally very lenient.

    EDIT/CRAP CUT: Don't be a clown. As long as you compare RMS ratings to RMS ratings and not peak or vice versa, and your numbers are remotely close, you will be fine if set up close to properly.
    Last edited by Heide264; 07-20-2010 at 12:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainrex
    He was throwing balloons filled with sulfuric acid and shrapnel at the swat team. They finally had to take him down with rubber bullets.
    2011 STi Build Log
    -Part 1 - Reading, Data Logging, and Analyzing Data
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    Subaru Newb MainFrame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
    EDIT/CRAP CUT: Don't be a clown. As long as you compare RMS ratings to RMS ratings and not peak or vice versa, and your numbers are remotely close, you will be fine if set up close to properly.

    What about running twice the power the speakers are rated for as I am doing? The only draw back I can see is I could potentially blow my speakers. However I have really cranked it up and the speakers seem just fine. And if I do blow them, big deal, they were only $40 in the first place. That would just be a good opportunity for an upgrade.

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