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This is a discussion on STi vs new vette within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Wow...sorry everyone. Down in Houston this week for some good 'ole Management Training. Myers-Briggs, Interviewing skills, presentation coaching, etc, etc, ...

  1. #31
    Moderator YBNormal07's Avatar
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    Wow...sorry everyone. Down in Houston this week for some good 'ole Management Training. Myers-Briggs, Interviewing skills, presentation coaching, etc, etc, etc. Not to bad in most cases, but unfortunately, my skill levels in most of these areas is a bit above what they bring to the table. Ahhh...the sacrifices we make.

    Anyway...the vette was a C6, since it had the plastik see through covered front lights. It was likely an auto now that I think about it, since I didn't hear any shifting breaks.

    I did walk him, and although I was in the act of passing him, I was not accelerating super hard...just a moderate roll by. I was waiting for it, yes, but I didn't respond until he got on it, so in my book, it was fair game.

    Yeah, at higher speeds, I'm sure it would have been a different outcome, but that's a "what-if" scenario. All I did was report what happened, and those are the facts. To all the BSers out there (and you 350ZBoooiiii)....whatever. Doubt it if you wish, I'm not here to comfort you.

    As for what my 1/4 mile times are, as soon as the track opens up, I'll find out. I aim to get 2 sets in...one with snow tires and one with street tires later on, just to see the difference. If I get a 12.5, I'll be happy.
    And yeah, my run with the vette was with snow tires, but no biggee since it was from a roll. I have absolutely no doubt that if it had been from a stop, the carnage would have been a LOT worse.

    All I know is...he laughed at my car. I beat him that time. Therefore, he was laughing at his own car even harder. Deep inside, he now knows this and maybe will respect the park benched winged-box in the future. Probably not, but I'll bet he'll be a lot more wary of them.

    ps...thanks to those who backed me up here. It's much appreciated!! As I'm sure you know, I never call BS on a race, but from time to time, will ask additional questions to understand the outcome better. I'm glad to see that others out there are similarly like-minded. As I've said time after time, anything is possible on the street. Even a 350Z beating an STi...although that one stretches the bounds of my imagination
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  3. #32
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YBNormal07
    Wow...sorry everyone. Down in Houston this week for some good 'ole Management Training. Myers-Briggs, Interviewing skills, presentation coaching, etc, etc, etc. Not to bad in most cases, but unfortunately, my skill levels in most of these areas is a bit above what they bring to the table. Ahhh...the sacrifices we make.

    Anyway...the vette was a C6, since it had the plastik see through covered front lights. It was likely an auto now that I think about it, since I didn't hear any shifting breaks.

    I did walk him, and although I was in the act of passing him, I was not accelerating super hard...just a moderate roll by. I was waiting for it, yes, but I didn't respond until he got on it, so in my book, it was fair game.

    Yeah, at higher speeds, I'm sure it would have been a different outcome, but that's a "what-if" scenario. All I did was report what happened, and those are the facts. To all the BSers out there (and you 350ZBoooiiii)....whatever. Doubt it if you wish, I'm not here to comfort you.

    As for what my 1/4 mile times are, as soon as the track opens up, I'll find out. I aim to get 2 sets in...one with snow tires and one with street tires later on, just to see the difference. If I get a 12.5, I'll be happy.
    And yeah, my run with the vette was with snow tires, but no biggee since it was from a roll. I have absolutely no doubt that if it had been from a stop, the carnage would have been a LOT worse.

    All I know is...he laughed at my car. I beat him that time. Therefore, he was laughing at his own car even harder. Deep inside, he now knows this and maybe will respect the park benched winged-box in the future. Probably not, but I'll bet he'll be a lot more wary of them.

    ps...thanks to those who backed me up here. It's much appreciated!! As I'm sure you know, I never call BS on a race, but from time to time, will ask additional questions to understand the outcome better. I'm glad to see that others out there are similarly like-minded. As I've said time after time, anything is possible on the street. Even a 350Z beating an STi...although that one stretches the bounds of my imagination

    I am not calling, BS, I never did. You are an exceptional driver and you happened to run across someone that was not a very good driver is all.

    as I said, you won, great race.... BUT

    Sti DRIVER beat the C6 DRIVER.... the STi did not be the C6. You were the better driver, but did not own the faster machine here... atleast not from a roll
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  4. #33
    Moderator YBNormal07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTR rex
    I am not calling, BS, I never did. You are an exceptional driver and you happened to run across someone that was not a very good driver is all.

    as I said, you won, great race.... BUT

    Sti DRIVER beat the C6 DRIVER.... the STi did not be the C6. You were the better driver, but did not own the faster machine here... atleast not from a roll
    That may be true, but if you do the numbers (which is what we are basing this on), based on a liberal 20% powertrain loss, I'm putting out 360 hp and 406 tq at the crank. The weights are very similar, so even with a "good" driver, it would be close. Especially below 100 mph as the gear ratios favor the STi at that range. Just shooting some number 'atcha as I'm pretty sure I understand where your coming from.
    tEh PriUs=teH faSTah!@@!
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    SOLD: 05 SWP Legacy GT Limited 5MT, 13.3ish@105 (stage 2) crappy stock clutch
    SOLD: 04 MPS/SW WRX Sti. 12.971 @ 103.97 (stock)
    278 AWHP/283 AWT, Catback exhaust
    306 AWHP/341 AWT, Stage 2
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  5. #34
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  6. #35
    Registered User Dan00Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalfiend
    Out of curiosity, what does 12.6 to 13.1 equate in car lengths? 2?
    One tenth of a second is equivalent to approximately 1 car length at 105 mph. I did the supporting math in another thread...

    So a 12.6 to a 13.1 would be 5 car lengths at the finish line (assuming equal reaction times).

    I can see an STi being in the "right spot" to take advantage of a C6 over a short blast, but as other's have stated: I wouldn't consider it the norm. Nice kill!


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  7. #36
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    nice KILL
    "I don't think he knows how to give up. His mind and machine are racing as one." -Takahashi Ryosuke
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  8. #37
    Banned TSi AWD's Avatar
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    I'm putting out 360 hp and 406 tq at the crank

    I don't think you making that much......Especially the torque albeit that it is fat.


    My Guess is like 340HP and liek 378 Torqe at the Wheels......


    What mods are on the STI to get those numbers? I know a stage 2 but I am not sure what that is? Can I see your dyno Graph?
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  9. #38
    Registered User scooby24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSi AWD
    I don't think you making that much......Especially the torque albeit that it is fat.


    My Guess is like 340HP and liek 378 Torqe at the Wheels......


    What mods are on the STI to get those numbers? I know a stage 2 but I am not sure what that is? Can I see your dyno Graph?
    he's actually making more at the crank than he stated.

    he gave numbers based on 20% drivetrain loss and ours is really more like 23%

    Dynojet puts down about 245 whp for STi's. Given the STi makes 300 at the crank that would be around 21% drivetrain loss...but dynojets are known to read a touch high.

    So now figure 21% from 306 AWHP/341 AWT

    This equivalates to about 388 crank hp and around 432 crank tq. However I don't think tq has the same drivetrain loss as hp...but I could be wrong.
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  10. #39
    Banned TSi AWD's Avatar
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    308 WHP on a Dyno Jet does not =388 Crank Horse power. No way. I bet he has 350 at the most at the crank and like 370-380 Torque. And you are also not losing 21% out of teh tranny. Rememeber the Tranny is a constant loss in power, so as your motor makes more power, the tranny still sapps the same WHP/T it does not go up. Also when an object is already accelerating (liek a tranny) it requires less and less power to push faster as it has stored energy.

    Have him run the 1/4 mile. If he traps over 110MPH then maybe but I bet it is 108MPH or less.....
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  11. #40
    Registered User AsianWRX's Avatar
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    Good race, nice kill!

    Cobb stg 2 STi pulls very nicely especially if its only up to 80mph, being an excellent driver as yourself and the vette having a passanger, I don't doubt the outcome
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but, is it incorrect to apply a strict percentage loss for drivetrain?

    I would assume the drivetrain loses X amount of HP, regardless of engine horsepower, which is a finite number.

    You can't tell me a 700hp STI, with the same drivetrain, loses 120 hp, compared to only 40 hp on a 300hp STI, it just doesn't make sense.


    My only gripe with some kill stories that involve seemingly faster vehicles, is the matter in which the poster seldom makes light of the fact that maybe there were clear factors that would explain the dubious outcome. They should at least admit from the get-go, that this outcome was not expected, and maybe there was something wrong/bad driver/other guy not as aggressive, etc...

    I guess its more of a modesty thing.
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  13. #42
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YBNormal07
    That may be true, but if you do the numbers (which is what we are basing this on), based on a liberal 20% powertrain loss, I'm putting out 360 hp and 406 tq at the crank. The weights are very similar, so even with a "good" driver, it would be close. Especially below 100 mph as the gear ratios favor the STi at that range. Just shooting some number 'atcha as I'm pretty sure I understand where your coming from.
    crank HP is meaningless. A car can put down 400 crank hp and then only get 150whp to the ground and its still slow as hell. You need to be looking at WHP. To give you the benefit of the doubt lets say you are making just over 300awhp. The C6 vette is making 365/370whp and weighs just about the same as you if not a little less.

    as I have stated several times, great job on the win. but you beat the driver, not the car
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSi AWD
    308 WHP on a Dyno Jet does not =388 Crank Horse power. No way. I bet he has 350 at the most at the crank and like 370-380 Torque. And you are also not losing 21% out of teh tranny. Rememeber the Tranny is a constant loss in power, so as your motor makes more power, the tranny still sapps the same WHP/T it does not go up. Also when an object is already accelerating (liek a tranny) it requires less and less power to push faster as it has stored energy.

    Have him run the 1/4 mile. If he traps over 110MPH then maybe but I bet it is 108MPH or less.....

    Well he ran faster than most could even get close to in his car stock and seeing his hp readings with just a cat-back I'm lead to believe he got a factory freak that was putting down more power than it should have been from the factory.

    If you consider on a dynojet a stock one putting down about 245 the difference to 300 is a 55 hp loss. So now he is making 308 at the wheels. This is a 63 hp difference so he would put down 363 crank hp. Tq he would be about 96 lbs above stock so around 395 lbs tq.
    05 Crystal Gray STi
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    Quote Originally Posted by drfrink24
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but, is it incorrect to apply a strict percentage loss for drivetrain?

    I would assume the drivetrain loses X amount of HP, regardless of engine horsepower, which is a finite number.

    You can't tell me a 700hp STI, with the same drivetrain, loses 120 hp, compared to only 40 hp on a 300hp STI, it just doesn't make sense.


    My only gripe with some kill stories that involve seemingly faster vehicles, is the matter in which the poster seldom makes light of the fact that maybe there were clear factors that would explain the dubious outcome. They should at least admit from the get-go, that this outcome was not expected, and maybe there was something wrong/bad driver/other guy not as aggressive, etc...

    I guess its more of a modesty thing.
    I don't know for sure. I would think though that the loss is due to a certain amount of friction caused by gears, weight, etc. When you increase horsepower you are trying to move all those parts faster....as you try to move those parts faster you are also increasing the amount of friction and the power it takes to get that weight and friction moving that much faster is an exponentially increasing amount of power...hense the reason for a percentage causing more loss of power as more power is increased.

    I could be completely wrong though so don't quote me.

    Edit: Think of it like this.....You have a 50 lb weight with a pole through the center. You twist the pole slowly, spinning the 50 lbs weight. As you apply a direct force on the weight's center it takes x amount of force to spin it. Now you want to spin it faster. Momentum keeps the weight sitting so as you push harder on it now it's taking y amount of force to spin it faster.

    Y > X
    Last edited by scooby24; 03-15-2005 at 10:07 AM.
    05 Crystal Gray STi
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  16. #45
    Registered User Dan00Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSi AWD
    308 WHP on a Dyno Jet does not =388 Crank Horse power. No way. I bet he has 350 at the most at the crank and like 370-380 Torque. And you are also not losing 21% out of teh tranny. Rememeber the Tranny is a constant loss in power, so as your motor makes more power, the tranny still sapps the same WHP/T it does not go up.

    Have him run the 1/4 mile. If he traps over 110MPH then maybe but I bet it is 108MPH or less.....
    I disagree... The driveline will still show a loss of approximately 20% regardless of the HP being produced. It requires MORE power to accelerate things faster, hence it is also absorbing more power. We're also talking about more than just the tranny. The wheels, fluid in the transfer case and differentials, etc...

    Drivelines do soak up more HP at higher HP levels. Not because of friction, but because of weight. When you try to spin the weight of the same part FASTER (accelerating), you have more inertial loss.

    Also when an object is already accelerating (liek a tranny) it requires less and less power to push faster as it has stored energy.
    At higher rotational speeds, yes, something has more stored energy. But the tranny and driveline is always in the same range. It's not like it suddenly went to 10,000 rpm, versus 6,000 rpm. A part has the same stored energy at 6,000 rpm regardless of how fast it's accelerating above or below that point. It just uses up more power to make it accelerate faster, hence, the corresponding driveline loss being a relatively constant percentage.

    This is why if you lighten up flywheels and tires and wheels, you see a HP increase and faster acceleration. Those lighter parts don't rob as much HP as you accelerate them. But it still requires more HP to make them accelerate faster...

    At least that's my take on it. I used to see it as a static number also until someone explained it to me this way.


    2007 VW GTI 6 spd. No times yet
    2000 Firehawk convertible 6spd- 12.52 @ 114.7 mph. 2.09 60'

    Sold: 2004 Mini Cooper S. 14.95 @ 93.8 mph.
    Sold: 2004 GTO 6 spd. 13.4 @ 104.5 mph
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