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Viper hunting?

6K views 68 replies 21 participants last post by  MidnightFLAT4 
#1 ·
Happened to see a few vipers this weekend while out and about. I really like how the cars look, and maybe could have bought one instaid of the sti, but wasn't thinking about it. They're just pimp as hell, fast and handle decently I guess. This got me wondering how fast they really are, because hopefully I'll get to race one eventually. I'm hoping for roughly a 12.0 in the 1/4 at 116 mph from my car eventually....we'll see if that becomes a reality.

I found this guide online:

http://www.dodge-vipers.com/production.html

Has alot of claimed 1/4 mile times. Anywhere from 12.9 to 11.8, depending on the model. The most common one, the GTS is listed as either 12.4@118 or 12.0@122, depending on the year, but with the same power and weight. How do they really do? How is traction for them on the street? I assume they are very fast in a highway roll.

Your thoughts?

thanks,

Kevin
 
#2 ·
Red Rocket said:
Happened to see a few vipers this weekend while out and about. I really like how the cars look, and maybe could have bought one instaid of the sti, but wasn't thinking about it. They're just pimp as hell, fast and handle decently I guess. This got me wondering how fast they really are, because hopefully I'll get to race one eventually. I'm hoping for roughly a 12.0 in the 1/4 at 116 mph from my car eventually....we'll see if that becomes a reality.

I found this guide online:

http://www.dodge-vipers.com/production.html

Has alot of claimed 1/4 mile times. Anywhere from 12.9 to 11.8, depending on the model. The most common one, the GTS is listed as either 12.4@118 or 12.0@122, depending on the year, but with the same power and weight. How do they really do? How is traction for them on the street? I assume they are very fast in a highway roll.

Your thoughts?

thanks,

Kevin
Even if you could get the jump on onw from a roll, you wouldn't last long before the aero gets you... Don't forget, we drive breadboxes on wheels!

Another thing you might be forgetting is that WHP is not simply enough.... You need torque too... it might be a little hard to bump your torque up to the 500+ft. lb that the newer Vipers have without some engine work.

you will need a lot more torque and whp than than a Viper to beat one simply because the extra power is needed to compensate for the carppy Cd. that our cars have.

As for the discrepancy between the times and traps, I am not sure... I know that Dodge initially had the 400HP model out, then went to the 450Hp GTS, and now to the 500HP convertables.... I would guess they will bump it up to 550HP when the coupe comes out:eek:

As for the trap speeds, they might have been using the roadsters with the top off for the slower trap speeds, and the coupes in some of the races also...

I am thinking that at those speeds, the difference in areodynamics between the coupe and roadster are playing some role in how fast the car is going when it passes the timing lights.
 
#3 ·
uh jigga you might be forgetting, HP = TQ * (RPM/5252). Torque is simply the relationship between horsepower and what rpm it is generated at. Two motors that make identicle hp but different amounts of "peak torque" should perform nearly identically; the one with the higher torque rating no doubt makes its peak HP at a lower rpm. The "higher torque" is offset by the correction in gear ratios to maintain the same speed/gear, thus equaling the same torque at the wheels. 300*2 = 200*3....

jeff
 
#4 ·
i really dont think you need more whp than a viper to beat it. I know most vipers weigh around 3500 pounds, so atleast we have a slight weight advantage. I think its possible for a wrx with around 400 at the wheels to hang or possibly beat a viper.

-BobbyD
 
#6 ·
Actually, the viper GTS has a coefficinent of drag of only .35, which is worse than the wrx's .33....hahhaaha. The RT/10 convertable has a horrific .55 Cd with the top down, .45 with the top up, signfigantly worse than a ford explorer's .41 Cd. Check this out, that I happened to come across:

http://www.darklair.com/cd.html

The Z06 has a .29........so watch out. Amazingly, a WRX is more aero than a 911 coupe, a camaro, or a mustang.

Torque is pretty irrellevant, for racing, as long as you have a strong and somewhat flat power band from 5000 rpm to redline. Only thing torque means is there is decent power at low RPM's.

Weight wise, the vipers are around a 3400 lb curb weight stock. My STi is around 3100 lb at the moment, give or take, almost 10% lighter than the viper.

Then I guess it comes down to power, or whp specifically. Granded, I'm not expecting to make much more than around 425 hp at the crank on 93 octane with my current setup once its's tuned, and we loose more with the sti's drivetrain. So go figure. Maybe an upgrade to a FMIC and a larger compressor wheel (52 or 56 trim GT37, or maybe the whole CHRA) will be in order when I'm ready to step it up a bit.

Kevin
 
#8 ·
BobbyD said:
I think its possible for a wrx with around 400 at the wheels to hang or possibly beat a viper.

-BobbyD
lol....you hit my eventual goal on the head :)

I really want to be able to line up against a Viper, ZO6 or KB Cobra and be able to beat them, yet still have a car that's completely streetable with full interior and reliable.

Possible? I've got faith, and will find out!
 
#9 ·
Any of you guys actually driven a viper, around town or on a track? I haven't driven the new ones, but considering the old models, i'd take a slightly modded STi any day. I don't like my pedals almost equally spaced, a hard to feel shifter, putting my legs forward and to the left instead of forward. They're definitely fast, but I couldn't imagine wanting one for a daily driver. Too tiring. I think you made a good choice with an STi. Quarter times shouldn't be everything, just enjoy your car.
 
#10 ·
I raced a new convertible viper last week on my bike. I was riding down the highway on my sv650 going around 70 when a viper goes blowing by me and then slams on his brakes and gets even with me. I look over and it's probably a 65 year old man driving the viper with dealer plates. We both make eye contact and he gives the signal by pointing foward, I drop a few gears and we're off. I pull away from him up to about 120(not sure how far ahead I am by this point) but I can hear him gaining some ground on me as I got over a 120mph. My exit was coming up so I shut down and look over at him and we both give the thumbs up.
 
#12 ·
SGOSWRX said:
I beat a newish Viper at our local 1/8 mile. You have to love that.

I smoked him off the line big time and he didn't have enough track to catch me. I'm just lucky it was only an 1/8 mile.
Apparently, you can beat everything. :p

Anyway, i would think an STI could give a Viper or even a Z06 fits on a 1/8 mile track, even a 1/4 mile track if the Viper or Z06 owner wasn't proficient with their cars. But let's be real, given equal driver, you should not be beating Vipers or Z06s. They still run better times than you and trap significantly higher.

You just must be able to sqeek every last ounce of power out of your car and the likewise cannot be said about the drivers you face.
 
#14 · (Edited)
You guys MUST be drinkin pimp juice... NO WRX of any kind will even come CLOSE to a Gen 3 Viper.

An STi *might* hang well with a Gen 1 Viper. They are close in times in the 1/4.

The Gen 2 Viper GTS is VERY fast. I have raced and driven Gen 1's and Gen 2's.

The Gen 3 Viper with 500 HP has already been documented to put out 520+ wheel HP with only a little exhuast work and a better filter. They are lighter than any other Generation and are rated at 11.7 @ 122+ in the 1/4 with a good driver. A 520 WHP version is probably capable of a high 10 second run. Bring your Sti with 400 HP of giggle gas!

A KB Cobra (Kenne Bell) with a upgraded KB blower will SLAUGHTER any STi on the street today. Granted you might give him heck OFF THE LINE, but remember a STOCK Cobra is rated as fast as the STi 0-60. I have pulled a 1.89 60' on stock rubber... KB's are in the NASTY FAST Supra range.... VERY SICK!

I've driven the STi, owned a modded Cobra, Driven a Gen 1 Viper and a Gen 2 Viper, and raced MANY Z06's.... The STi, although VERY fast and capable, is not going to come close to a Gen 2, Gen 3 Viper. You will need MANY mods IMHO.

Even the 1/8 mile you will not come CLOSE to a Gen 3 Viper.

BTW: I dont know anything about your bike, but I have raced several 600cc and 750cc bullet bikes with my modded 03 Cobra. I beat EVERY ONE of them on a highway race. I think your bike is SUPER fast (like a 9 second bike) or the Gen 3 Viper driver did not know how to drive. Bikes are VERY beatable on the highway. There quickness is mostly off-the-line.

Good luck.
 
#15 · (Edited)
03Cobra said:
You guys MUST be drinkin pimp juice... NO WRX of any kind will even come CLOSE to a Gen 3 Viper.

An STi *might* hang well with a Gen 1 Viper. They are close in times in the 1/4.

The Gen 2 Viper GTS is VERY fast. I have raced and driven Gen 1's and Gen 2's.

The Gen 3 Viper with 500 HP has already been documented to put out 520+ wheel HP with only a little exhuast work and a better filter. They are lighter than any other Generation and are rated at 11.7 @ 122+ in the 1/4 with a good driver. A 520 WHP version is probably capable of a high 10 second run. Bring your Sti with 400 HP of giggle gas!

A KB Cobra (Kenne Bell) with a upgraded KB blower will SLAUGHTER any STi on the street today. Granted you might give him heck OFF THE LINE, but remember a STOCK Cobra is rated as fast as the STi 0-60. I have pulled a 1.89 60' on stock rubber... KB's are in the NASTY FAST Supra range.... VERY SICK!

I've driven the STi, owned a modded Cobra, Driven a Gen 1 Viper and a Gen 2 Viper, and raced MANY Z06's.... The STi, although VERY fast and capable, is not going to come close to a Gen 2, Gen 3 Viper. You will need MANY mods IMHO.

Even the 1/8 mile you will not come CLOSE to a Gen 3 Viper.

BTW: I dont know anything about your bike, but I have raced several 600cc and 750cc bullet bikes with my modded 03 Cobra. I beat EVERY ONE of them on a highway race. I think your bike is SUPER fast (like a 9 second bike) or the Gen 3 Viper driver did not know how to drive. Bikes are VERY beatable on the highway. There quickness is mostly off-the-line.

Good luck.
You know what man, let's be real for a second. Sometimes you act like the WRX guys are the ones full of ****.

I check out the SVTperformance board every so often and they have as many bull****ters as every other internet board. Hey, my pullied '03 Cobra beat an R6, let's have a circle jerk about it. Or I beat a S/C Z06 in my pullied and chipped Cobra, the terminator is the baddest thing on earth.

I'm sick and tired of some of these message boards. ****ty drivers are everywhere and they drive every kind of car. I've seen '03 Cobra's run low 13s...so they can lose to STI's. And if '03 Cobra's that run high 12s can beat Vipers, then why is it so hard to believe that an STI could as well?

Double standards suck ass. And I'll tell you what, I hope you're over at the SVT forums preaching just like you do here, because they need more help than anyone in regards to respect and objectivity.

I mean, there are WRX guys on those boards trying to set 'em straight just like you do here...but that's right, they get called ricers and get told to just shut up. But you get treated with respect. Hm...once again, double standards.

Whatever...Its all bull****, that's the only thing I've gleaned from these message boards over the years. Everyone fronts, but when it comes time to race, its excuses. That's the culture of a psuedo sport where it ain't about skills and its more about money and talk.

You don't hear this **** when it comes down to real competitions, do you? Lol.

Edit: I just realized that the tone of this post could be interpreted as harsh towards '03 Cobra. That was unintended and I fully apologize if that's how its viewed. I just get frusterated over at those SVT forums sometimes...and I guess I took it out on the wrong entity. My sincerest apologies '03 Cobra.
 
#16 · (Edited)
i really dont think you need more whp than a viper to beat it. I know most vipers weigh around 3500 pounds, so atleast we have a slight weight advantage. I think its possible for a wrx with around 400 at the wheels to hang or possibly beat a viper.

Weight


Gen#3 RT/10 3410 WRX 3100 dif of 310 Lbs

RWHP 450 Stock WHP 400 Stage 4 with a 2.2
or 2.5 conversion
Weight to HP Ratio 7.5 LBS per HP 7.75 LBS per HP

You are riht on the money. The WRX should win that race due to it's gearing and AWD advantage. But a 350 WHP WRX will loose.
 
#17 ·
Its definately the awd advantage that wins the race. Thats how I beat Z06s and thats how I beat this Viper.
He didn't stand a chance in a short race up to 85mph or so. Most Vipers/ Z06s can't run those mag stats at the track. Some can but many just spin their tires all the way through first gear.
 
#18 ·
SGOSWRX said:
Its definately the awd advantage that wins the race. Thats how I beat Z06s and thats how I beat this Viper.
He didn't stand a chance in a short race up to 85mph or so. Most Vipers/ Z06s can't run those mag stats at the track. Some can but many just spin their tires all the way through first gear.
yes, I agree that off the line, many 300-350whp awd cars will give more powerful cars hell..

From a roll on race though, I am not so sure... I guess it is all in the power to weight ratio as has been mentioned above I guess...
 
#20 ·
To keep the record staight, I dont even post on SVTperformance any more. Have not for a year.
-----------------

I have given more respect to the STi than any other car. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar you can not get a more fun and exciting car.

However, I dont consider exhaust and filter a "mod." So a 2003/4 SRT-10 Viper with 520 WHP is about a 1:6.5 HP to wieght. Again, this car is 0-60 in 3.9 stock and grabs VERY well with massive rubber. Even a crappy driver can take an Sti. Not to mention it traps about 20 MPH faster...

Hey, we all go over this all the time. "Horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

I could make a Yugo beat an SRT-10. But exactly how many Sti's are on the street taking SRT-10 Gen 3 Vipers? Maybe 1, maybe 2.... Maybe none...

You would have to do things to the STi that would make its resale value crap, be illegal on the street, and probably KILL the longevity of the car to make it that fast....

The Gen 3 Vipers are fast. You will see times of VERY low 11's and I would be a high 10 with a couple of minor tweeks.

Another thing to consider: The STi comes pretty much maxed out. It takes a lot to sqeeze out more performance. Not as bad as others, but the SRT-10 Viper is VERY choked. You can unleash WAY more HP/TQ out of that V10 than you could ever dream with the STi.


To each his own....



:)
 
#21 ·
03Cobra said:
To keep the record staight, I dont even post on SVTperformance any more. Have not for a year.
-----------------

I have given more respect to the STi than any other car. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar you can not get a more fun and exciting car.

However, I dont consider exhaust and filter a "mod." So a 2003/4 SRT-10 Viper with 520 WHP is about a 1:6.5 HP to wieght. Again, this car is 0-60 in 3.9 stock and grabs VERY well with massive rubber. Even a crappy driver can take an Sti. Not to mention it traps about 20 MPH faster...

Hey, we all go over this all the time. "Horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

I could make a Yugo beat an SRT-10. But exactly how many Sti's are on the street taking SRT-10 Gen 3 Vipers? Maybe 1, maybe 2.... Maybe none...

You would have to do things to the STi that would make its resale value crap, be illegal on the street, and probably KILL the longevity of the car to make it that fast....

The Gen 3 Vipers are fast. You will see times of VERY low 11's and I would be a high 10 with a couple of minor tweeks.

Another thing to consider: The STi comes pretty much maxed out. It takes a lot to sqeeze out more performance. Not as bad as others, but the SRT-10 Viper is VERY choked. You can unleash WAY more HP/TQ out of that V10 than you could ever dream with the STi.


To each his own....



:)


Are you trying to say a 500+hp Viper is faster than a 300hp STi?
Why would anyone think such a thing? :D

But I dought there are too many stock Vipers running 1.66 sec 60' times.
The 03 Cobra that I raced that was trapping 116 mph took more than half the track to catch me. So a well driven STi can definately beat a Viper in a short race. (but it must be short)
 
#22 ·
SGOSWRX,


My brother has a New RT 10 and he has raced many STI's on the street and the track. The STI definitely has the advantage of the line, but he has timed 1.77 60 ft times. You seem to be lucky and maybe ran some RT 10 drivers that depend on the cars power rather than driving skills. He has never lost to an STI or a Stage 4 WRX in the 1/8, but they have given him a dam good run. Hell, I beat an STI in my Stock WRX running 15.5 PSI. I ran a 13.8 and he ran a 14 sec 1/4. You seem to be a good driver, and seem to squeeze all the performance out of your STI.
 
#23 ·
My modded 03 Cobra was very close to a Gen 2 GTS:

12.0 @ 118 with a 1.89 60' on stock rubber.

Now if I, average driver, can pull a 1.89 in a Cobra, what can your "average driver" pull in a Viper? They have much better grip.

The STi can perform very well off the line, however, it has about the same amount of rubber to the pavement. One stock Viper tire is about the width of 2 stock STi tires. Sure you are applying power to 4 tires with the STi and 2 with the Viper. But you are really applying power to about the same amount of friction or road surface. The STi has a slight advantage.

But even if you take a Viper in the 60' by 1/10th or even 2/10ths, you will get KILLED in the 1/8th and sluaghtered in the 1/4....

Again, anything can happen on any day, anywhere.... I just feel TOO MUCH is given to the STi "off-the-line" and not enough given to how much faster the SRT-10 really is than the STi. I would bet money the new SRT-10 can hang right there in 60' times with the STi. You take to professioanl drivers, they would be close. Its just easier to get any jerk-meat driver to get the STi to produce a nice 60'. I still think its not that hard to get the Viper to produce a very good 60' as well. 60' do not win a race BTW.





:)
 
#24 ·
BTW: I also think its kind of funny to compare a SRT-10 (or any Viper) to a Subaru WRX STi.

They are both built for different purposes. The STi does not compare in looks or power. And who cares if the STi will beat the Viper in dirt or snow... Thats NOT the point.

Personally I would much rather be driving a slow SRT10 than a fast STi, anyday...
 
#25 ·
03Cobra said:
To keep the record staight, I dont even post on SVTperformance any more. Have not for a year.
-----------------

I have given more respect to the STi than any other car. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar you can not get a more fun and exciting car.

However, I dont consider exhaust and filter a "mod." So a 2003/4 SRT-10 Viper with 520 WHP is about a 1:6.5 HP to wieght. Again, this car is 0-60 in 3.9 stock and grabs VERY well with massive rubber. Even a crappy driver can take an Sti. Not to mention it traps about 20 MPH faster...

Hey, we all go over this all the time. "Horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

I could make a Yugo beat an SRT-10. But exactly how many Sti's are on the street taking SRT-10 Gen 3 Vipers? Maybe 1, maybe 2.... Maybe none...

You would have to do things to the STi that would make its resale value crap, be illegal on the street, and probably KILL the longevity of the car to make it that fast....

The Gen 3 Vipers are fast. You will see times of VERY low 11's and I would be a high 10 with a couple of minor tweeks.

Another thing to consider: The STi comes pretty much maxed out. It takes a lot to sqeeze out more performance. Not as bad as others, but the SRT-10 Viper is VERY choked. You can unleash WAY more HP/TQ out of that V10 than you could ever dream with the STi.


To each his own....



:)
Here's the problem - you're purposely trying to make a uneven comparison. No kidding the newest, best, fastest Viper with a couple bolt-ons will beat a stock STi....duh.

The spirit of this thread is to figure out what would make a close race against a viper, or edge one out. Not the newest best viper, a common one such as a 97-02 GTS.

I also disagree that the STi is maxed out - the turbo is pretty maxed out, but people are still pulling 12.3-4's with it. With a bigger turbo+bolton's, people are seeing 150 whp gains on pump gas. Pretty good.

Kevin
 
#26 ·
I have to disagree with you. The WRX is a difficult car to launch. The car lacks the low-end torque of most V8’s, so you need to launch them at high RPMS. If you drop below the power band during a launch the WRX will bog and the result is a crappy 60 ft time. I have been racing cars for years, and find the WRX a temperamental little pain in the ass car to launch. In most cases, I can manage a 1.8 60 ft time in my stock WRX, but I have seen 2.0 on many occasions. My brother has a 2004 RT 10 and I believe, that any meathead can manage some good ¼, but place the car in the hand of a skilled driver and you will see different times. The majority of Viper owners use these cars for weekend cruises and rarely engage in any type of racing. The Viper is one bad car, but it can be beat. My brother raced a GT 40 Kit car with a 302 CID 400 HP and got his ass handed to him.
 
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