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Viper hunting?

6K views 68 replies 21 participants last post by  MidnightFLAT4 
#1 ·
Happened to see a few vipers this weekend while out and about. I really like how the cars look, and maybe could have bought one instaid of the sti, but wasn't thinking about it. They're just pimp as hell, fast and handle decently I guess. This got me wondering how fast they really are, because hopefully I'll get to race one eventually. I'm hoping for roughly a 12.0 in the 1/4 at 116 mph from my car eventually....we'll see if that becomes a reality.

I found this guide online:

http://www.dodge-vipers.com/production.html

Has alot of claimed 1/4 mile times. Anywhere from 12.9 to 11.8, depending on the model. The most common one, the GTS is listed as either 12.4@118 or 12.0@122, depending on the year, but with the same power and weight. How do they really do? How is traction for them on the street? I assume they are very fast in a highway roll.

Your thoughts?

thanks,

Kevin
 
#27 · (Edited)
I also disagree that the STi is maxed out - the turbo is pretty maxed out, but people are still pulling 12.3-4's with it. With a bigger turbo+bolton's, people are seeing 150 whp gains on pump gas. Pretty good.

That's with significant upgrades. We are talking FMIC, Engine Management, TB, UP and Intake. But yes the car has plenty of potential. I have seen 470 WHP STI's with the listed mods and bigger turbo.
 
#28 ·
I still think even with your 470 WHP STi against a 520 WHP Viper, you would struggle and still possibly loose.

Why?

Because the power to weight will be close BUT the TQ will not. You might have 470 WHP but you are probably in the neighborhood of 320 WTQ. The VIper is more like 550+ in TQ. That will propell that beast WAY faster. Certainly you will give one a nice run in the first 1/8, but it will progressively get worse the faster you go and the longer you stay in it....

Besides how many times will you have some seriously MAXED out STi against a SRT10 Viper? Not many... Even if the odds turn out such that they meet on the street, who's gonna road race a SRT10 Viper?

I would personally be DAMN happy to edge out C5 Vettes. And maybe catch a crappy driver in a Z06. Thats PLENTY to brag about...
 
#29 ·
I like cobras but refuse to believe a modded cobra could hang with a 600 or 750cc bike. If you have beaten such bikes(which a 600cc might be possible if you have a good deal of money in your car), but running a 12 sec 1/4 is not even going to get you close to todays 600s. New 600s are running low to mid 10s at over a 130, pretty much comparable to 750s of a few years ago. I do like cobras though. Ok, I'm off my soap box now.
 
#30 ·
The only viper experience I've had was recently, this past weekend. It seems like every sunday the rich dudes take their toys out for a spin on the major highways around here...anyway, it was a mid-late 90's model (the one with the side pipes), and to my surprise the driver was pretty young (20's), and he was the one that picked the race. We went from a 40 mph roll, i pulled about a half car through 3rd gear, then about a full car by the end of 4th. I was surprised that I could hang with it from a roll, but that gen i think only came with 400 hp, so the numbers were actually in my favor. From a dig I probably would have beat him by a lot more...When I get a real tune with the AEM I should be around 410-420 whp on pump gas, and then I can *attempt* to run the current gen vipers and see how close I can come to them. But honestly, racing those things from a roll with awd is like pissing in the wind. On a real 1/4 or in a street race from a dig, its much more even...
 
#31 ·
Ponm said:
I like cobras but refuse to believe a modded cobra could hang with a 600 or 750cc bike. If you have beaten such bikes(which a 600cc might be possible if you have a good deal of money in your car), but running a 12 sec 1/4 is not even going to get you close to todays 600s. New 600s are running low to mid 10s at over a 130, pretty much comparable to 750s of a few years ago. I do like cobras though. Ok, I'm off my soap box now.
Well lets look at your theory. First off, most bikes I see at the track run high 10's to low 11's. The ones running low 10's and high 9's are the fastest bikes on the street. Big CC engines.

I am claiming to pull 600cc and 750cc bikes on a roll from 40/50 MPH up. There are MANY claims of this by Cobras.

600cc bike:
0-60 in 2.0 seconds


Cobra:
Stock 4.6 0-60 and about 3.9 in decently modded form.

Thats about a 2 second difference. So if your bike can do a 10 FLAT, ny Cobra did a 12 FLAT at 118 on STOCK tires. You take the LAUNCH out of the equation WHERE THE BIKES SHINE AND THE COBRA LOOSES ALL ITS TIME then it appears the Cobra should edge one out on a roll.

You see, a bike gets MOST of its time on the 0-60. After that you are not accelerating at the same rate. If you are 2 seconds faster 0-60 and 2 seconds faster in the 1/4 AND you take away the 0-60 part, they should be close.

If you think about it, most of these bikes are really 10.5-11.5 seconds bikes. My Cobra COULD produce a LOW 11 second run. Why a 12 flat?

1. Stock rubber.
2. Long shift points, crappy driver.


So if you took my same Cobra and made the car STICK to the ground at launch AND you had someone who could drive the thing better you could EASILY shave off another 1/2 to 3/4 of a second or more.

So taking the launch out of the equation leaves crappy shifts. Well on a roll from 60 MPH I think I probably had it in 3rd. A 3rd to 4th shift is almost instant.

So you see, it could be more like a 11 second bike against a 11 second car. ONLY the 0-60 was taken out of the equation where the BIKE makes MOST of its ground.

Hey I have MANY "in car" video's showing how fast my Cobra went from a 60 MPH roll to 120+. I timed it and if I remeber correctly the Cobra went form 60 MPH t0 90 MPH in about 1 second. and to 120 in about 2.5 or so.... The car was down right NASTY fast....

I can email the files if someone needs to see them. I did have them posted on here at one point. I will see if I can find them....

MOdded 03 Cobra's beat 600cc and 750cc bikes ALL THE TIME from a roll.
 
#33 ·
This also brings something to mind. These larger V8/V10 high HP and high TQ engines (e.g. Cobra and Viper) are able to move those cars at speeds VERY well. The STi will NOT shine in the that department. Not enough displacement. This is why I say it would take QUITE a bit to take a SRT10 Viper. or like...
 
#34 · (Edited)
Correct me if I am wrong, but a turbo forces air in to the conbustion chamber creating more preasure and a bigger conbustion for greater horspower gains. Seems to me that the turbo is an efficient way of makiking up for the lack of cubic inches. At the end of the day, it’s all about forcing air into the conbustion chamber. Turbo cars and supercharged cars will always have the advantage. Hell look at ALL8UP 2.5 liter conversion. On pump gas and 23 PSI he makes over 400 WHP. Do the math, and you will see that his car is more efficient than the 10 liter viper. Look at formula 1 race cars engines. Small displacement, but make incredible power.
 
#35 ·
Yep. Renault was using a 1.5 litre engine to get 1000+ hp in F1, before it was outlawed.


Damn.. I cant believe that you STI dudes are actually talking about taking on a Viper... Too bad, I just have a lowly wrx :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Drod said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but a turbo forces air in to the conbustion chamber creating more preasure and a bigger conbustion for greater horspower gains. Seems to me that the turbo is an efficient way of makiking up for the lack of cubic inches. At the end of the day, it’s all about forcing air into the conbustion chamber. Turbo cars and supercharged cars will always have the advantage. Hell look at ALL8UP 2.5 liter conversion. On pump gas and 23 PSI he makes over 400 WHP. Do the math, and you will see that his car is more efficient than the 10 liter viper. Look at formula 1 race cars engines. Small displacement, but make incredible power.
 
#36 ·
03Cobra said:
I still think even with your 470 WHP STi against a 520 WHP Viper, you would struggle and still possibly loose.

Why?

Because the power to weight will be close BUT the TQ will not. You might have 470 WHP but you are probably in the neighborhood of 320 WTQ. The VIper is more like 550+ in TQ. That will propell that beast WAY faster. Certainly you will give one a nice run in the first 1/8, but it will progressively get worse the faster you go and the longer you stay in it....

Besides how many times will you have some seriously MAXED out STi against a SRT10 Viper? Not many... Even if the odds turn out such that they meet on the street, who's gonna road race a SRT10 Viper?

I would personally be DAMN happy to edge out C5 Vettes. And maybe catch a crappy driver in a Z06. Thats PLENTY to brag about...
I don't understand your explanation here in regards to the superior torque advantage of the Viper. The only time that torque advantage is going to be relevant is in first gear, i.e. the launch. AWD should make up for that.

Once you cross 5252, hp is always higher, right? So after first gear, that STI is really never going to be in a position where torque is relevant...its all about horsepower and moving that weight.

I'm not saying an STI would run with a Viper...but this is why I can run with an E36 M3 for example. I make about 80 lbs of torque less..which gives that car the punch on me. However, once I cross over and hit my 1-2 shift, I stay above 5252 - so its all about horsepower to weight. And I win in that category.

I don't know, I might be talking out of my ass, but it seems like the STI's superior launching ability will make up for the torque advantage that the Viper has. And this is assuming we are talking about the 470hp STI that you referred to, not a stock STI.
 
#37 ·
I just think its hilarious how these domestic v8-v10 and supra guys pride themselves on highway pulls. Sure I do it all the time for fun, but I know I'm at a disadvantage so I dont take it too seriously. These guys take it to another level though, betting money on it and, get this, actually thinking that their cars are good because they can accelerate. Those domestics are $hit around a road course. A fwd honda can take a viper or cobra (not a vette though) around watkins glen if driven properly. Sure going fast in a straight line is fun, but it's not real driving. That's why the Japanese are laughing at us and they wont let us have their prized cars (GT-R, NSX-R, ITR). They know American's will do anything they can to force feed them to go fast in a straight line at all costs, and ruin what they were intended for. Hell, even the Evo VIII we have is a $hit version of the J-spec model. I also find it funny how Europe and Japan have had the sti model for years and when they finally released it in the US they gave it a 2.5 L (the Jap sti still has a 2.0) and wide seats so the Americans can fit our fat a$$es in and enjoy the extra displacement.
 
#38 ·
03Cobra said:
Well lets look at your theory. First off, most bikes I see at the track run high 10's to low 11's. The ones running low 10's and high 9's are the fastest bikes on the street. Big CC engines.

I am claiming to pull 600cc and 750cc bikes on a roll from 40/50 MPH up. There are MANY claims of this by Cobras.

600cc bike:
0-60 in 2.0 seconds


Cobra:
Stock 4.6 0-60 and about 3.9 in decently modded form.

Thats about a 2 second difference. So if your bike can do a 10 FLAT, ny Cobra did a 12 FLAT at 118 on STOCK tires. You take the LAUNCH out of the equation WHERE THE BIKES SHINE AND THE COBRA LOOSES ALL ITS TIME then it appears the Cobra should edge one out on a roll.

You see, a bike gets MOST of its time on the 0-60. After that you are not accelerating at the same rate. If you are 2 seconds faster 0-60 and 2 seconds faster in the 1/4 AND you take away the 0-60 part, they should be close.

If you think about it, most of these bikes are really 10.5-11.5 seconds bikes. My Cobra COULD produce a LOW 11 second run. Why a 12 flat?

1. Stock rubber.
2. Long shift points, crappy driver.


So if you took my same Cobra and made the car STICK to the ground at launch AND you had someone who could drive the thing better you could EASILY shave off another 1/2 to 3/4 of a second or more.

So taking the launch out of the equation leaves crappy shifts. Well on a roll from 60 MPH I think I probably had it in 3rd. A 3rd to 4th shift is almost instant.

So you see, it could be more like a 11 second bike against a 11 second car. ONLY the 0-60 was taken out of the equation where the BIKE makes MOST of its ground.

Hey I have MANY "in car" video's showing how fast my Cobra went from a 60 MPH roll to 120+. I timed it and if I remeber correctly the Cobra went form 60 MPH t0 90 MPH in about 1 second. and to 120 in about 2.5 or so.... The car was down right NASTY fast....

I can email the files if someone needs to see them. I did have them posted on here at one point. I will see if I can find them....

MOdded 03 Cobra's beat 600cc and 750cc bikes ALL THE TIME from a roll.
A gsxr 1000cc bike generally runs 9's. While a cbr600 will run a mid to low 10. They actually shine on top-end because they run about a high 6 or low 7 in an 1/8th. Most bike do 0-60 in sub sec times.
 
#39 ·
i have a modded (but not finished) STi and have driven a GTS. (my uncle has a '92 RT/10 with 800 miles and a '97 GTS with 400 miles...and i put on 100 of those 400 miles ;) ).

lets put it this way: from a roll in 2nd gear in the GTS, my brother could NOT touch the radio....and yes, he was really trying. can a WRX or STi beat a viper? of course. will anything short of a 400whp WRX/STi beat a viper from a roll? hell no. from a stop? you better be a good driver, and the track better end really soon.

once my car is done, im tempted to ask my uncle to race me to
see how close it would be. well see though ;).

keep in mind, this is in regards to gen1 or gen2 vipers like which is what was originally asked about. gen3s will require so much more for our cars to keep up. like 03cobra said- they are beasts.

oh and for what its worth, 03cobra is very right. the viper has the torque card. and for those that say well hp is what wins the race because after 5252, yadda yadda...just remember that it makes its peak power at 5200. do some calculations on that ;)
 
#40 ·
A fwd honda can take a viper or cobra (not a vette though) around watkins glen if driven properly.
Give me an example of a fwd that can take a Viper in a road course. It must be a 500 whp one. Viper are great handling cars and can run with the best at the tracks. Many European racing teams use them and are quite successful with them against the Skyline, NSX and other high end JDM cars. They have good handling and gobs or torque to get the out of the corners fast. I have this month Automobile Magazine, and the Viper ran some impressive track times against some impressive competition
 
#41 ·
Top Fuel CTR and ITR (for fwd), Mines GT-R, HKS Evo (awd), etc. Yes these are shop cars, but there are lots of customers with the full performance setups these cars have, save the 10's of thousands of dollars for carbon fiber ish. It's funny how I really only see vipers out when it's really cold. Everyone I've ever spoken to with one has told me to not get one, that they are fun but the cockpit gets like 100 degrees and the motor likes to overheat. The DLM viper (930 hp) got beat by a 770 hp turbo trans am from a roll, and thats what they pride themselves on. For a road course I'd rather have a heavily modded z06. But if I had the money to piss away I'd def get a viper as a toy anyway. They're dead sexy :)
 
#43 ·
I was doing some reaserch on Vipers and came accros several 1 st gen RT -10's running mid 12's and 2nd gen GTS runing high 11's to low 12's stock. I also saw a 3rd gen run a 11.7 @ 123 MPH. Then you get into the DLP Vipers and Henessy that dip well in to the 10's and 9's. Saw some super charged Vipers with 1000 HP. :eek3:
 
#44 · (Edited)
smokey said:
I don't understand your explanation here in regards to the superior torque advantage of the Viper. The only time that torque advantage is going to be relevant is in first gear, i.e. the launch. AWD should make up for that.

Once you cross 5252, hp is always higher, right? So after first gear, that STI is really never going to be in a position where torque is relevant...its all about horsepower and moving that weight.

I'm not saying an STI would run with a Viper...but this is why I can run with an E36 M3 for example. I make about 80 lbs of torque less..which gives that car the punch on me. However, once I cross over and hit my 1-2 shift, I stay above 5252 - so its all about horsepower to weight. And I win in that category.

I don't know, I might be talking out of my ass, but it seems like the STI's superior launching ability will make up for the torque advantage that the Viper has. And this is assuming we are talking about the 470hp STI that you referred to, not a stock STI.
CAn you PLEASE explain your "SUPERIOR LAUNCHING ABILITY"? PLEASE!

Perhaps in the hands of an amatuer or someone driving the Viper for the first 10 times.... The ONLY thing the STi has over an RT10 is the ability to learn to launch it faster. It will take a bit more time to learn to handle the monster TQ of the V10. That said, I will guarantee you that even a CRAPPY driver can pull a sub 5 second 0-60 (being that stock is 3.9). That might be 4/10ths slower than the STI's PERFECT lanch. So even if you get a perfect launch on a MODDED STi its still QUITE possible that the Viper will kill you in a run....

People... Unless you've been in a 500+ HP Viper and driven one, you are CLUELESS.... Thats the ONLY car I've been in that I honestly think would KILL my Cobra....

Hey an STi can be made to go as fast as you like. So can the Viper BTW.

Again, you really can not compare the 2 cars. The ONLY race an STI (modded or not) will take a 03 SRT10 Viper is a dirt/snow track....

-----------------------------------

As for a lesson on TORQUE... What exactly do you think you need EVERY TIME YOU SHIFT?

You think TORQUE only works off-the-line? Wrong! Every time you shift and bring the RPMs down, you bring yourself back into peak TQ. What does this do? It helps you "muscle" the weight into the higher RPMs. The higher the TQ the faster you will need to shift and the faster the RPMs will climb.

The TQ helps you under the load. Yea it helps you get something moving, but its also helps with the acceleration rate.

-------------------------------------

Hey the STi is a bloody fantastic car... But a SRT10 Viper?

Agian, bring ALL your mods and some NOS... AND PRAY the Viper does NOT have basic bolt-ons... Then you can FORGET IT!

Crist... The STi is SUPER fast, but your really not in the exotic car category....
 
#45 · (Edited)
Yes, the viper is a beast, but it's not an exotic, not by a long shot. It's an American muscle car. And your explanation of torque was right on. I took a ride in my buddies 550 hp/520 lb-ft LS1 and every time he shifted it felt like he was launching...that being said, it's hard to keep the wheelspin down all the way through 3rd gear.

P.S. I've been really getting seduced by muscle cars recently. What did you do to the cobra to get it 465/485. I'm thinking of either a 02-03 cobra or C5. I'm not too familiar with the Cobra's upgrading stages. I know its pretty popular to do pullies, intake, exhaust, and a chip, +/- some nitrous. What does that get you whp wise? If I got the c5 I'd have to either boost it or do a full bolt-on with nitrous.
 
#46 ·
We can say that stock for stock these two cars do not have anything in common. Like I stated earlier, my brother has a 04 RT –10 and he has timed 11.9 @ 122 in the ¼. The car was launched from idle when he ran the 11.9. He launched the car from 2500 rpms and ran an 11.7. With DR’s he ran 11.5 with a 3000-rpm launch anything over that and he will roast the tires. The car is easy to drive and any meathead can run that car to a mid to high 12 sec ¼ the first time they drive it. Car has way too much power to be slow. He has never lost to an STI in the 1/8 or ¼. He ran a 1.7 60 ft time from an idle launch. Car is awesome. If you ever see an Hispanic guy driving a silver and black 04 RT-10 in the NOVA area that will be him.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Why are the newer viper's all convo's? I HATE when companies make awesome cars like this convertible. It makes it heavier and lessens the stiffness of the chassis. Are they planning on making a coupe? I take it all your borther's times are in stock trim. I wonder what he would run with just some intake and exhaust work :eek:
 
#48 ·
BassMan097 said:
Yes, the viper is a beast, but it's not an exotic, not by a long shot. It's an American muscle car. And your explanation of torque was right on. I took a ride in my buddies 550 hp/520 lb-ft LS1 and every time he shifted it felt like he was launching...that being said, it's hard to keep the wheelspin down all the way through 3rd gear.

P.S. I've been really getting seduced by muscle cars recently. What did you do to the cobra to get it 465/485. I'm thinking of either a 02-03 cobra or C5. I'm not too familiar with the Cobra's upgrading stages. I know its pretty popular to do pullies, intake, exhaust, and a chip, +/- some nitrous. What does that get you whp wise? If I got the c5 I'd have to either boost it or do a full bolt-on with nitrous.
just remember, bassman, that the 02 cobra didnt have the s/c. 03+ did.

if you got the c5, the turbo kits are super expensive (think spending the same amount on a turbo upgrade for your c5=price of a wrx) lol. if i had a c5, i personally would follow the n/a path. new intake lid, new full exhaust and a hot cam, and the car will be deep in the 11s. thats sick. ....then again with the turbo kit youre in the 9s. ;)

and ps- i hope they make a coupe version of the viper like they did the first time around. should be even more hardcore.
 
#49 ·
Drod said:
We can say that stock for stock these two cars do not have anything in common. Like I stated earlier, my brother has a 04 RT –10 and he has timed 11.9 @ 122 in the ¼. The car was launched from idle when he ran the 11.9. He launched the car from 2500 rpms and ran an 11.7. With DR’s he ran 11.5 with a 3000-rpm launch anything over that and he will roast the tires. The car is easy to drive and any meathead can run that car to a mid to high 12 sec ¼ the first time they drive it. Car has way too much power to be slow. He has never lost to an STI in the 1/8 or ¼. He ran a 1.7 60 ft time from an idle launch. Car is awesome. If you ever see an Hispanic guy driving a silver and black 04 RT-10 in the NOVA area that will be him.
hey, i'm moving back to nova this weekend from ct.....moving out to cascades but my wife's parents live in Mclean.....could you hook me up to get a ride in your bro's srt-10, i've yet to see one.
 
#50 ·
BassMan097 said:
P.S. I've been really getting seduced by muscle cars recently. What did you do to the cobra to get it 465/485. I'm thinking of either a 02-03 cobra or C5. I'm not too familiar with the Cobra's upgrading stages. I know its pretty popular to do pullies, intake, exhaust, and a chip, +/- some nitrous. What does that get you whp wise? If I got the c5 I'd have to either boost it or do a full bolt-on with nitrous. [/B]
I'm sure my buddy 03cobra will give you the run down on hp with each of the mods but I will tell you, I rode/drove his car only when he had the venom chip, catback, and I think he also had the pulley on at that time and that car was FAST....I mean you would punch it and start laughing because you could not believe how f'ing fast it was. It would instantly pin you to the seat. We went out a few times when I was in town "looking for a run" ;-) and we came upon these two guys in a new SS or maybe it was a TA (let mike clarify when he reads this), I remember it was white and we were driving down Rt 7 in Tyson's, VA when these guys cut across a lane to get up beside us to run. Mike waited for them to punch it and then we just blew by them like they were driving a yugo......slowed down to let them come up and they tried again......similar result...rappage.......we slowed again and they signaled us to pull off to a mcd's to chat. They could not believe how hard we took them and I think he had at least exhaust mods and an intake.
We'd see a similar result anytime someone tried to run us with that car. Now, he eventually put on an intake that he tells me made the car "sick", I never got to go in it with that but hell, it was plenty fast in the modded form that I rode in. He had to sell it because he could not control himself when people wanted to run, its just too much to resist putting them in their place.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Actually, I was only running 395 RWHP at that race with the TA.

You want a 03 Cobra used over a C5 if you are looking for RAW power and excellent handling. A Cobra is cheaper to mod, cheaper to own, and WAY easier to get HP.

BTW: It takes a LOT more to get a C5 "deep" into the 11's my friend. Not a simple intake, cams, and exhuast. That will get you about a 12.3 or so... Basically a Z06 but heavier.

03 Cobra: 4.6L V8 32 valve 390 HP 390 TQ stock

Exuast upgrade = 45+ HP gain and 60 TQ
Chip = 20 HP and 20 TQ
Filter = 5-10 HP

This setup costs about $800 or so and yeilds about 400 RWHP.


2.80" SC Pulley + tune costs about $150 or less.
Yeilds about 440 - 470 RWHP and 470-490 RWTQ

With just the above mentioned upgrades I ran a 12.0 @ 118 on STOCK tires @ 75F with only 3 tries and BAD SHIFTS!!! With practice and better tires you could snag a 11.5.

Put in a Cold Air system that works to allow the car to breath cause the 2.8 pulley pulls in WAY MORE air. Costs about $200 or less. Yeilds MASSIVE power gains with the above setup. I could NOT believe how the car woke up with this upgrade. Unreal!!!

Dont know times or HP with the CAI. I would guestimate about 40+ HP and 40+ TQ. Probably around 500 RWHP and 600 RWTQ based on my assometer and others who have tweeked the above and dynoed.


You can get a used 03 Cobra for about $28K+/-.... This car will SHOCK and AMAZE every STi owner out there when in modded form. It will also SHOCK and AMAZE yor friends when they sit in the passenger seat as you tell them to hold on before you stomp it in 1st gear from a 20 MPH roll....

Every friend I had just luaghed histerically when the car was launched. The could NOT believe how it pulled so hard. It felt as fast as a bike and pulled VIOLENTLY. Its the hit of the part my friends... And it will kill you VERY quickly. Better know who to handle it....



















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