anecdotal performance info

**cliff201** · 03-05-2004 10:09 PM

wow. The WRX is my first AWD car but I think it handles great when it really counts. Coming off of a 4wd truck that I used to drive in the snow the awd is sooo much more fun

**DTR rex** · 03-06-2004 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Snacks
"stacks up" is a vague attribute. If you put all of them on the floor and measured their height, or weight, I'm sure their respective differences would be very obvious. What specifically do you want to know? I could make an arguement for any one of them being the best depending on what you consider is important.

i am referring to the aspect of bad weather (sliding, spining tires, handling) and also, also, the performance aspect of not losing control or breaking lose.

**virpacalis** · 03-06-2004 02:07 PM

Last winter there was a local auto-x where about half the cars were WRX's, several well prepared and ordinarily very competitive. One new guy showed up with a stock 330xi and good tires. He had the fastest time of the day. I think it was because of his great balance and traction in the 2-3 inches of snow we ran in.

**Snacks** · 03-07-2004 08:46 AM

Well I think that if you want to best of everything in all weather conditions, your only choice is to get an STi. I'm not knocking the WRX, but there's allot to be said for a tuneable lock on the center differential.

If racing is not your bag however and you kinda like the idea of an automatic, IMO, the WRX slushbox is a pretty sweet setup with the mild rear torque bias. With just a beefier rear swaybar and spring set, I was able to powerslide mine around at will.

**DTR rex** · 03-07-2004 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Snacks
Well I think that if you want to best of everything in all weather conditions, your only choice is to get an STi. I'm not knocking the WRX, but there's allot to be said for a tuneable lock on the center differential.

If racing is not your bag however and you kinda like the idea of an automatic, IMO, the WRX slushbox is a pretty sweet setup with the mild rear torque bias. With just a beefier rear swaybar and spring set, I was able to powerslide mine around at will.

I WILL NEVER BUY AN AUTOMATIC, and i cant afford an STI. I wasnt really asking in reference of buying a car, just curious. i hear the 330xi and 325xi are good in snow, but those are a lot of money.

**Nick Cave** · 03-09-2004 09:23 AM

Originally posted by DTR maxima
I WILL NEVER BUY AN AUTOMATIC, and i cant afford an STI. I wasnt really asking in reference of buying a car, just curious. i hear the 330xi and 325xi are good in snow, but those are a lot of money.

We have had a couple BMW 325xi's come out and RallyCross in the past few years. They seem to have more rear bias and really had trouble on ice. They didn't look or run much better then then the rear wheel driver 325's. We had a pair of S4's come to the last race. One was fastest on bare tires by a fraction of a second over a 2.5 RS and about twenty WRX's with snow tires. The other had all season's and an excellent driver and was well down the field. My wife drives an ML320 and its system uses the brakes to control wheel spin. Great for safety but not much fun. I couldn't spin it if i tried and I did try.

I would take Subaru over Audi because of the price difference. Performance is very similar. I have driven the S4 and wanted to buy one so bad I could taste it but it is not $15k better. I have beaten every S4 I have met including two at the the local road racing track. They are great looking cars though.

**dark_rex** · 03-09-2004 10:49 AM

From a pure driving perspective, I prefer the WRX AWD over the Audi Quattro. I've read numerous times over that the BMW and Audi systems are driven by the ABS system, and steal power from the car, rather than properly redistributing it to gripping wheels.

much more "sure footed" feeling in inclement weather in the sube.

dR

**trips222** · 03-09-2004 11:29 AM

I also have a BMW X5, which uses the same AWD system as the 3 series. The bias is rear 62/38'ish and will adjust. I think anyone is nuts to race around the street in bad weather, so a little ABS adjustment when its slipping is fine for me. Lived the last two bad winters here in MD with no, zero, nada problems. Of course also none so far in the wagon but have only had it since the end of December...

The BMWs and now G35s will have the rear wheel drive feeling, and awd traits. So I think it depends on what you are looking for. I think all of them would get you out of snow/bad weather with proper tires. Racing in it..well I don't know. I would venture driver and tires would come out the winner...

I think its Automobile this month that has an article about your next car being AWD...

**Griswold** · 03-09-2004 11:58 AM

Originally posted by dark_rex
From a pure driving perspective, I prefer the WRX AWD over the Audi Quattro. I've read numerous times over that the BMW and Audi systems are driven by the ABS system, and steal power from the car, rather than properly redistributing it to gripping wheels.

much more "sure footed" feeling in inclement weather in the sube.

dR

The Audi Quattro systems are purely mechanical. NO abs involvement.

**merlot** · 03-10-2004 06:25 AM

Originally posted by Griswold
The Audi Quattro systems are purely mechanical. NO abs involvement.

Wrong:

quattro

Here's how it works: If one of the wheels on an axle loses grip and starts spinning, propulsive power has to be diverted to the other wheel by the axle's differential. Previously, a mechanical differential lock enabled this to take place. Now, the Electronic Differential Lock has replaced the mechanical lock, effectively transferring the excess power of the spinning wheel to the other wheels with better traction.

**Griswold** · 03-11-2004 11:03 AM

Originally posted by merlot
Wrong:

quattro

Apologize in advance for the paste***** post. :-)

I guess your right, since I wasn't considering the ESP equipped cars.

B5 chassis were purely mechanical until the ESP program came out. Sorry, I should have clarified. The B6's also have an electronic differential which works with the ESP/traction control program.

It didn't used to have any electronic braking before ESP.

"Electronic Differential Locks (EDL)
The Electronic Differential Locks (EDL) permit smooth, comfortable starts on uneven road surfaces. If a wheel starts to spin, EDL brakes it as necessary so that power is transmitted to the wheel with the better traction. EDL reduces tire wear and works up to about 25 mph (quattro®: up to about 50 mph). EDL is part of the Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®) and Traction Control (ASR) systems."

Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®)
The Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP®) increases vehicle control in situations where the vehicle is near its performance limits. It reduces the risk of skidding and helps to keep the vehicle on course. ESP recognizes the course desired and the car's reactions. Through brake application at individual wheels, it generates one-sided forces which help the car to move in the desired direction. ESP uses other driving aids: the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD), the Electronic Differential Lock (EDL) and the traction control (ASR) system, and is permanently engaged.
Note: ESP cannot suspend or extend limits imposed by the laws of physics. If a driver exceeds the capabilities of the suspension system and ESP, even ESP cannot prevent loss of control and an accident.

**dark_rex** · 03-11-2004 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Griswold
The Audi Quattro systems are purely mechanical. NO abs involvement.

sorry.

you should probably read up a bit more on that one.

dR

**Griswold** · 03-11-2004 11:55 AM

Originally posted by dark_rex
sorry. you should probably read up a bit more on that one.

dR

I still disagree with the original statement, as quattro isn't "Driven by the ABS system."

The electronic diff and the ABS work in conjunction as part of the ESP system...

I had a 99 A4 with no ESP and it WAS (and still is) purely mechanical.

BTW, I ammended my original statement in a subsequent post, it's all cool.

**dark_rex** · 03-11-2004 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Griswold
I still disagree with the original statement, as quattro isn't "Driven by the ABS system."

The electronic diff and the ABS work in conjunction as part of the ESP system...

I had a 99 A4 with no ESP and it WAS (and still is) purely mechanical.

BTW, I ammended my original statement in a subsequent post, it's all cool.

split hairs all you like, when a wheel slips on a quattro equipped audi (that's not more than 5 years old

) rather than just redistribute the power to a gripping wheel, the wheel is braked electronically through the ABS system. this equates to a NET LOSS of power, rather than a simple redistribution of 100% of the power.

In 1998, Audi began employing the Haldex electro-hydraulic clutch. this also works by taking power away from spinning wheels rather than reditributing power to gain the best ratio for each wheel.

EDL was offered initially in '94 by Audi.

dR

**Griswold** · 03-11-2004 02:10 PM

Originally posted by dark_rex
split hairs all you like, when a wheel slips on a quattro equipped audi (that's not more than 5 years old ) rather than just redistribute the power to a gripping wheel, the wheel is braked electronically through the ABS system. this equates to a NET LOSS of power, rather than a simple redistribution of 100% of the power.

In 1998, Audi began employing the Haldex electro-hydraulic clutch. this also works by taking power away from spinning wheels rather than reditributing power to gain the best ratio for each wheel.

EDL was offered initially in '94 by Audi.

dR

Okay, guess you're right. No need for the

. I was relating things as I knew them, based on my experience. I was incorrect. You got me.

Thanks for clearing it up. No sarcasm intended.