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This is a discussion on For Those of You That Street Race in the Bay Area within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; Originally posted by Trailboss How is that not entrapment? They are instigating. It is entrapment...so maybe that's why the cop ...

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Trailboss
    How is that not entrapment? They are instigating.
    It is entrapment...so maybe that's why the cop took off.

    Easy solution...don't rev at a light...so you can claim entrapment if an undercover pulls ya over!

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  3. #17
    Registered User renichms's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Trailboss
    How is that not entrapment? They are instigating.
    If you think about it, since they're not on call, if they race you, THEY are every bit as guilty as you are...especially if they instigate. Personally, if I KNOW a car is an unmarked cop car and he's trying to instigate a race...I'm callin' the cops on this crazy mofo racing from every light. Let them deal with that criminal.

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  4. #18
    Registered User Dan00Hawk's Avatar
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    You guys that claim that it is "entrapment" or they are "instigating" the race really make me laugh... As if you'd have any legal ground to defend yourself if you got caught in that instance. If the cops were off duty, then you might have an argument that they are guilty too. But an off duty cop can still make an arrest or perform his civic duty, and it's expected of them.

    So if a bank leaves the vault door open, and you walked in and took some cash, that's considered entrapment? Or how about drug stings, where a cop poses as a dealer, and someone approaches him to buy some crack? Busted! Cops do this to prostitutes and johns all the time, too. The criminal is the guy that knowingly broke the law. Same as if you drag race another car on the street. Nothing says you can't ignore another vehicle that's egging you on to race. If it looks suspicious, don't race. Prove your manhood some other time. Granted, I'm usually game to race, but realize if I get caught or set up, it's my own damn fault for not being more observant and for taking the risk.

    Sometimes we just need to be accountable for what we choose to do, and take some personal responsibility for our actions. Okay, I have to go back to my cell now, as the warden says I've used up my allotted time online for today...


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  5. #19
    Registered User renichms's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dan00Hawk
    You guys that claim that it is "entrapment" or they are "instigating" the race really make me laugh... As if you'd have any legal ground to defend yourself if you got caught in that instance. If the cops were off duty, then you might have an argument that they are guilty too. But an off duty cop can still make an arrest or perform his civic duty, and it's expected of them.

    So if a bank leaves the vault door open, and you walked in and took some cash, that's considered entrapment? Or how about drug stings, where a cop poses as a dealer, and someone approaches him to buy some crack? Busted! Cops do this to prostitutes and johns all the time, too. The criminal is the guy that knowingly broke the law. Same as if you drag race another car on the street. Nothing says you can't ignore another vehicle that's egging you on to race. If it looks suspicious, don't race. Prove your manhood some other time. Granted, I'm usually game to race, but realize if I get caught or set up, it's my own damn fault for not being more observant and for taking the risk.

    Sometimes we just need to be accountable for what we choose to do, and take some personal responsibility for our actions. Okay, I have to go back to my cell now, as the warden says I've used up my allotted time online for today...
    So it is okay for a cop to CHOOSE to break the law? Whether he's a cop or not, he's street racing and as guilty as anyone else. If he instigates it, it wouldn't be too difficult to feel your life in danger and the need to get away by fleeing this maniac in an unmarked car...as the local cops have TOLD me to do. I don't exactly go out street racing, but if a cop instigates something with me, whether I bite or not, I'm not going to be held responsible for something he TRIES to provoke. It means he has looked at YOU and picked YOU and wants to bust YOU. Very personal, very easy for some sort of discrimination to enter into, ESPECIALLY age.

    And so, if a cop tries to get me to race, I'm still going over his head so he gets what he deserves. Of course, this doesn't mean I'm going to bite if goaded, but I wouldn't doubt a cop low enough to instigate a race is low enough to lie about whether you raced him or not.

    And since this has turned into a useless thread...I'm out. I obey the law and have enough experience with criminal cops to know they cannot do anything they want and do get punished when they do wrong and I'm not going to sit and listen to someone telling me I live in a police state where they're gods and can do as they please, the rest of us be damned.

    RN
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  6. #20
    Registered User artistgonebad's Avatar
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    Instigating isn't entrapment. Entrapment requires the police to force you into the position where you have to break the law. If they are driving recklessly, tailgating you, threatening you, etc. that might be grounds for an entrapment defense, but not simply pulling along side of you and revving the engine.

    If this post is accurate it's nothing new. I grew up outside of Detroit and my brother was heavy into street racing. In Detroit if you were caught racing it was an automatic forfeiture of the car. That was that. As a result, the police always had a steady stream of "fresh" unmarked cars to bag racers with. The rule of Woodward Ave was: always know who you're racing.

  7. #21
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    Originally posted by renichms
    And since this has turned into a useless thread...I'm out.
    RN
    This thread is far from being USELESS. Actually, it is becoming quite usefull, especially all of the talk about the entrapment and what is and what is not entrapment. That is what this type of subject matter on a forum does. Gets opinions from all sides of the coin.

  8. #22
    Registered User Dan00Hawk's Avatar
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    I'll comment and answer RN's points, despite the fact that he chose not to deal with my other examples of legal procedures that police routinely use that are similar in nature to the topic at hand.

    Originally posted by renichms
    So it is okay for a cop to CHOOSE to break the law? Whether he's a cop or not, he's street racing and as guilty as anyone else.
    When is blipping the throttle at a stoplight or on the highway against the law and why is it considered street racing? It would only be illegal once one party takes off and engages in unlawful behavior. We are (or were) talking about revving as being entrapment.
    That's If he instigates it, it wouldn't be too difficult to feel your life in danger and the need to get away by fleeing this maniac in an unmarked car...as the local cops have TOLD me to do.
    A car merely revving at me has never made me fear for my life or feel that the other driver is a maniac. Aside from a few friends with dangerously fast and loud cars... Isn't that how 90% of impromptu street races begin, with just a simple rev?
    I don't exactly go out street racing, but if a cop instigates something with me, whether I bite or not, I'm not going to be held responsible for something he TRIES to provoke. It means he has looked at YOU and picked YOU and wants to bust YOU. Very personal, very easy for some sort of discrimination to enter into, ESPECIALLY age.
    Whatever agenda you have against particular cops that you've run across or that you feel have wrongfully discriminated against you isn't the real issue here. It's whether revving at someone is considered entrapment. I'm sorry that you've been targeted in the past, and that your view of authority figures is likely forever tarnished. But going any further in that direction would likely take this off topic...
    And so, if a cop tries to get me to race, I'm still going over his head so he gets what he deserves. Of course, this doesn't mean I'm going to bite if goaded, but I wouldn't doubt a cop low enough to instigate a race is low enough to lie about whether you raced him or not.
    If they've got the incident on video, which they would most likely be using as evidence, you might be facing an uphill battle to prove their negligence (or potentially your innocence). If the cops decide to crackdown on streetracing, you can bet that the court will be supportive of their methods unless those methods can be proven to be a violation of your rights.

    And since this has turned into a useless thread...I'm out.
    Why is this a useless thread??? It's good discussion, informative, thought provoking, and there hasn't been any ill will between the participants.
    I obey the law and have enough experience with criminal cops to know they cannot do anything they want and do get punished when they do wrong and I'm not going to sit and listen to someone telling me I live in a police state where they're gods and can do as they please, the rest of us be damned.

    RN
    No need to comment on that last paragraph...


    Originally posted by artistgonebad
    Instigating isn't entrapment. Entrapment requires the police to force you into the position where you have to break the law. If they are driving recklessly, tailgating you, threatening you, etc. that might be grounds for an entrapment defense, but not simply pulling along side of you and revving the engine.
    Exactly! If anyone willfully chooses to participate in a street race, whether they were "provoked" or not, they are guilty of breaking the law. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences.

  9. #23
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    i'm not going to get involved in the discussion but there is a huge "street racing" spot around here. Basically it's like a highway so to speak with lights and tons of business' like a strip and what have you. Over the past few years i've gotten to know a bunch of guys down there and there is a white SS camaro that is a cop and always reved at someone, well in court it was rules as "entrapment" Now i'm not saying thats the right call or not, just 1st hand experience that i've seen/heard of. Please continue on you both are making good points.
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  10. #24
    Registered User milenko11's Avatar
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    The one thing that I never understood is how they have the right to take your car from you. That is retarded. If they are going to do that take away the cars of the drunk drivers too. I don't street race but I think they are punished too severly.

  11. #25
    Registered User Dan00Hawk's Avatar
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    I agree that drunk drivers are more of a danger than the two casual guys at a stoplight that will probably go up to 10 mph over the speedlimit and shut it down, but playing devil's advocate, I think someone that is doing triple digits around other traffic is also a significant risk to the public, especially if racing another vehicle. Taking possession of someone's vehicle should only be done on a case by case basis and determined by the circumstances involved, IMO.

    Custom: I'd like to know more details of the situation you described and how it got dropped. It could also save a few people here from getting convicted when they finally get caught...

    Here in Chicago, a good buddy of mine driving his SS got trailed a few years back by an unmarked Mustang GT on the expressway. The GT would rush up, and then back off. The GT repeated this a few times until finally my buddy had enough, downshifted, and took it up to 105 and left the GT way behind. That is, until the red and blues in the GT started flashing. Video in court showed my buddy changing lanes w/out signaling, excessive speed, and reckless driving. All charges that stood. His argument, in court, is that he was antagonized by the officer. Judge ruled that at no point does that justify breaking the law. He spent a few grand in lawyer's fees and traffic fines to learn a tough lesson...

    Another story that I only heard about (and don't know how true it is), was a similar situation that gives some credibilty to Renichms point: After being "taunted" repeatedly by the undercover car, the civilian called the police on his cel phone, and 5 minutes later 2 state troopers merged onto the highway and had a chat with the undercover car. I guess there's a point where it's considered harrassment if the cop continually keeps egging you on, and you don't respond. Something to keep in mind, I guess. If you nail it after just one instigating rev, however, get your license, insurance card, and lawyer's phone # ready.

  12. #26
    Registered User CustomS10's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dan00Hawk

    Custom: I'd like to know more details of the situation you described and how it got dropped. It could also save a few people here from getting convicted when they finally get caught...
    well it's so busy and cops literally give out at least a hundred tickets a weekend or not more that the court system is usually over run by appeals and what not. So 8 out of 10 times it'll get dropped. From what i was told the guy went to court he had witness', after he told his side the cop said that's how it went and the guy said that reving and all that sort've stuff was edging him on to go against his better judgement etc...etc...and the court agreed and boom off he went.
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  13. #27
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    haven't you ever seen Cops when the policewomen dress up as hookers?
    lol, hope that made some kind of point
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  14. #28
    Registered User CustomS10's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jungdragon
    haven't you ever seen Cops when the policewomen dress up as hookers?
    lol, hope that made some kind of point
    very different. The women doesn't make the arrest the team of male's around the corner do.
    -Ben-
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  15. #29
    Registered User DTR rex's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CustomS10
    very different. The women doesn't make the arrest the team of male's around the corner do.
    not always.

    danhawk: I live fairly near you. bartlett/schuamberg area with is 20min from lombard. I Havnt seen to big of a crackdown on street racing, but there are a lot of cops that profile young kids and modded cars. I have an integra that is modded and I get looks from cops and followed fairly often.

    - I would have to agree that reving is not entrapment. I am pretty fluent with the law, (tort and criminal) and although it is instigating, its not entrapment. they are fairly diffent. entrapment is being forced to commint the crime because you were left with no other reasonable choice. instigating, is encouraging or pressuring to commit the crime. Heres the thing though, i have friends that have been ticketed for revving. cops will give you a ticket for "instigating a race/speed battle".

    i am kinda torn on the subject. I dont think its right for them to be able to do it with things as petty as street racing, but in drug busts and stuff i agree with it. if your doing nothing wrong and a cop pushes and hits you, and you hit him back, and YOU get in trouble, thats rediculous. ofcourse the best thing to do is just walk away and call other cops, but you get my point.

    I guess i am just bad because someone that is running a friend at a light gets a tougher punishment than a someone who has had 3 dui's. that right there, is enough for me to lose my faith in the legal system. (not counting the millions of other messed up crap)

  16. #30
    Registered User PolarisSnT's Avatar
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    Originally posted by 91 F-body
    It is entrapment...so maybe that's why the cop took off.

    Easy solution...don't rev at a light...so you can claim entrapment if an undercover pulls ya over!
    I still dont get how it is entrapment. ALl the cop did was rev at you. THat doesnt mean he wants to race. That is your call to race not his. You do not have to take this so called challenge. Maybe his shoe was wet and he slipped off the brake pedal and hit the gas. That is my understanding of it anyway, if he didnt force you to race then it is not entrapment.
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