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This is a discussion on C&D 10 Best... within the Comparison: WRX vs World forums, part of the Community - Meet other Enthusiasts category; No longer includes the WRX. Seems pretty lame when I look at some of the other cars on the list. ...

  1. #1
    Banned sarcasmo's Avatar
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    C&D 10 Best...

    No longer includes the WRX. Seems pretty lame when I look at some of the other cars on the list.
    Acura TSX
    Audi S4
    BMW 3 series
    Chevy Corvette
    Ford Focus
    Honda Accord
    Honda S2000
    Infiniti G35
    Mazda RX-8
    Toyota Prius

    Come on - the Focus and the Prius? I've ridden in and driven a Focus (unfortunately). Did I completely miss something about that car? In regard to the Prius, it's only on there because it's environmentally sound. I think all of the car mags feel obilagated to include it.

    There are other cars that are definitely borderline, but those are the two I take the most exception to. Thoughts???

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    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    The Prius deserves to be on every magazine's best car list. It may not be the definitive wave of the future, but it's a terrific start. The latest revision has lots of interior room, uses clever solutions like a tall cabin, and of course is a hybrid. To ignore a car such as this in a best car list would be myopic.

    The Focus in theory is the most advanced car Ford make worldwide (remember, warranty issues are not a consideration in this argument, and EU Focii have a far better rep than US cars so clearly origin matters too -- the design can be made sound is my point). Ages ahead of the Escort, Mondeo/Contour, Sierra/Merkur or any other global Ford offering.

    Cars that don't belong on that list IMO:

    The Mazda RX8. Wankel for the sake of being different in the 21st century? Although they look better than ever on paper, Wankels are just not on, sorry. NSU knew best three decades ago (or if they didn't the market taught them; they folded into VAG...). Why Mazda have not caught on yet is anyone's guess.

    Chevy Corvette. Boorish styling basically unchanged since the 80s, chest-wig charriot IMO, major revision coming soon, why not wait and judge the new car?

    Acura TSX and Honda Accord. Pick one. Both seem competent sedans and ought be be built very well. Why have both on the list -- doesn't the advertising money come from a single source anyway? Do they pay double?

    More thoughts: I'm glad the G35 is on there, Japan or someone needed to make a BMW 6 series for years now since BMW had stopped (though they are resuming, which will probably make the G35 redundant IMO). The Nissan cousin, the Z, looks terrific except for one detail: it seems like they forgot to give it door handles, then grafted them on at the last minute. I can't deal with the door handles - silver, prominent, apparently tacked on as an afterthought. I've often wondered if one could use G35 doors on a Z! The rest of the car is very graceful, almost like 1930s aero designs. Shame.
    Last edited by SD_GR; 12-03-2003 at 07:18 PM.
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    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
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  4. #3
    Registered User SGOSWRX's Avatar
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    I'll never buy another Car and Driver Mag for the rest of my life. No EVO, no STi, what are they thinking? The Vette, focus, etc, etc. Those old farts at Car and Driver wouldn't know a good car if it ran them over.
    Ok , now I feel better, and where's my Car and Driver Mag.

  5. #4
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    They are correct on not having the Evo or the STi on the list.

    The base model Lancer and Impreza RS are better cars -- much more suited to the average consumer's needs. Yet even those two cars are not extraordinary; a Civic, Jetta, or Corolla can compete with them.
    WRX Info Links, Courtesy TheJ
    The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. Ernest Hemingway
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

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    Registered User happasaiyan's Avatar
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    hmm...the focus deserves to be on the list because its the best ford ever, but the STi and EVO dont deserve to be on there because their base models arent that great? wow, that makes so much sense it makes my head spin.

    the usdm accord is completely different than the tsx. the tsx is the japanese accord, built off a different frame with a different engine.

    if you ask me, i would buy the hybrid civic over the prius anyday.

    vette unchanged since the 80s? are you smoking crack? no? what are you smoking then? the c5 vette is completely different than any other corvette ever built. interior aside, the c5 is arguably one of the best engineered cars on the road today. a 405hp engine that gets 28mpg? one of the easiest engines to mod and get huge horsepower for cheap. the transmission is in the rear of the car for a pretty dang good weight distribution for a front engine, rear drive car. one of the most aerodynamic exteriors on the road, and oh yeah- one of the best bangs for your buck, too.

    i dunno what you were trying to get at with talking about the bmw 6 making the g35 redundant? because a $60k car could make a $35k car redundant? and no, the door handles were NOT an afterthought. they were in the original design of the concept car and even went out to say that if anything, the only thing that wouldnt change would be the door handles. apparently a lot of people (especially the engineers) liked the handles. too bad you dont. shame.
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    Registered User happasaiyan's Avatar
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    oops sorry...didnt see this:

    All opinions expressed are mine only and are inherently worthless.
    nevermind my previous post.
    '04 PSM STi - modded (sr50+the works)
    '05 JGM RSX Type-S - stock

  8. #7
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by happasaiyan
    hmm...the focus deserves to be on the list because its the best ford ever, but the STi and EVO dont deserve to be on there because their base models arent that great? wow, that makes so much sense it makes my head spin.
    Where was that stated in my post? I stated that the Focus is Ford's most advanced world car to date. As for the STi and Evo, I stated that the base models are better road cars, more suited to a wider variety of needs, and that even the base model Impreza and Lancer are not ahead of the Civic and Corolla. Here's what I said:

    "The base model Lancer and Impreza RS are better cars -- much more suited to the average consumer's needs. Yet even those two cars are not extraordinary; a Civic, Jetta, or Corolla can compete with them."

    the usdm accord is completely different than the tsx. the tsx is the japanese accord, built off a different frame with a different engine.
    Granted.

    if you ask me, i would buy the hybrid civic over the prius anyday.
    It's a close call for me too, and the Civic is very promising also. The tie breaker would be space and ergonomics for me. I'd have a tough time chosing though.

    vette unchanged since the 80s? are you smoking crack? no? what are you smoking then? the c5 vette is completely different than any other corvette ever built.
    I wrote: "Boorish styling basically unchanged since the 80s..."

    interior aside, the c5 is arguably one of the best engineered cars on the road today.
    I'm not willing to leave the interior aside. The mechanicals do seem well thought out though -- they ought to be, it's not an economy car after all.

    the transmission is in the rear of the car for a pretty dang good weight distribution for a front engine, rear drive car. one of the most aerodynamic exteriors on the road, and oh yeah- one of the best bangs for your buck, too.
    Putting a gearbox in the rear is great, if for no other reason than nostalgia (70s, 80s and so on) -- I almost always applaud nostalgia, even if it's unintended. Plus, it's been proven in other cars to work as advertised, so I've no doubt GM got it right too. In the US the Corvette is not inexpensive, though it is and has almost always been a lot of performance for the money.

    i dunno what you were trying to get at with talking about the bmw 6 making the g35 redundant?
    For decades, nobody has made a CS or 6xx coupe. Now, in their own way, Nissan are -- but so are BMW themselves. I won't pretend I've not considered the G35 myself, I have -- after all, I want a CS or 6xx car, but a new one!

    {talking about the Z} ... and no, the door handles were NOT an afterthought. they were in the original design of the concept car and even went out to say that if anything, the only thing that wouldnt change would be the door handles. apparently a lot of people (especially the engineers) liked the handles. too bad you dont. shame.
    I have owned 2 Z cars and considered at least two more in the past, but this one's put me off a bit, yes. What I wrote was: "... looks terrific except ... it seems like they forgot to give it door handles, then grafted them on at the last minute ... silver, prominent, apparently tacked on as an afterthought ... The rest of the car is very graceful, almost like 1930s aero designs."

    Whether the engineers like the door handles or not has little to do with whether the handles meld with the rest of the body, and my statement commented solely on aesthetics. IMO the statement "the only thing that wouldnt change would be the door handles" is getting close to the proverbial "emperor's-new-clothes" if -- and only if, I have to admit -- the implication is that they received criticism even at the development stages and chose to ignore it... Did they? Or am I alone in strongly disliking the way the door handles seem to stick on to the body lines like that?

    Maybe in 30 years the new Z will be a classic like the 240Z is, and maybe everyone will then comment on how brilliant the door handles really were. I just don't think I'll be one of them, whether I own a 350Z then or not.

    Edit: Just to put it bluntly, I'd not throw away a new Z -- having shelled out money for two previous versions I think makes me a bit of a fan, and I'd look at the new car closely too. It's just that more likely than not I'd try to find someone to shave the door handles... (More realistically at this stage in life, the G35 would be more for me -- sad in some ways, good in others, unavoidable in either case). Know how many WRX owners didn't go for the bug eyes look of the 01+ GDx car, despite the new car having an otherwise improved chassis? In my case with the Z, it's the handles.
    Last edited by SD_GR; 12-04-2003 at 02:55 PM.
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    The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. Ernest Hemingway
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

  9. #8
    Registered User Scrat WRX's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Well, don't want to completely step in the middle of this pi**ing contest, but I do agree that the Z's door handles put me off a bit, too. It's a great looking car, but if I had the choice it would be the G35 for the sleeker look.

    The Z looked great until I saw a G35. Then I said "what's the deal with the door handles on the Z?"

    Funny how those little things can make such a difference. Not that I'd turn one away if someone gave one to me, but....

    Cheers,

    Scrat
    Last edited by Scrat WRX; 12-04-2003 at 08:41 PM.
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    Registered User cyrilgrey's Avatar
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    You people have problems.
    Where is the Echo? That should be #1.

  11. #10
    He simply abides. SD_GR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Scrat WRX
    Well, don't want to completely step in the middle of this pi**ing contest, but I do agree that the Z's door handles put me off a bit, too. It's a great looking car, but if I had the choice it would be the G35 for the sleeker look.
    The Z looked great until I saw a G35. Then I said "what's the deal with the door handles on the Z?"
    Funny how those little things can make such a difference. Not that I'd turn one away if someone gave one to me, but....
    Cheers,
    Scrat
    Yes. The frustrating part for me is that the rest of the body is *very* elegant. I suppose an argument can be made that if they fix the door handles on the Z they'd be left without an echoing theme for the front clearance markers, that are also vertical (but in a show of mercy, do not protrude like the door handles do). Still, I'd much rather have the Z with the G35's doors. I really like the way they've used curves and how it looks "upright" like a Zagato body but not angular and certainly not "busy" at all, very aero, almost classy-retro-30s even, very clean. A spoiler actually "spoils" it from some angles, it's that balanced IMO.
    Last edited by SD_GR; 12-04-2003 at 10:18 PM.
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    The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. Ernest Hemingway
    I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would. Benjamin Sisko
    DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are the author's alone and are inherently worthless.

  12. #11
    Registered User soon2BWRXd's Avatar
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    I'm not willing to leave the interior aside. The mechanicals do seem well thought out though -- they ought to be, it's not an economy car after all.
    How come on EVERY import board I visit, that is the ONLY thing you guys can find to complain about? Have you actually sat in a Corvette? It compares to the levels found in almost all SPORTS CARS!!!!! If you want a fancy interior buy a BMW or a Mercedes, but don't complain that a car built for performance has a less than appealing interior Hmmm 28MPG and has 405Hp on an over head VALVE engine ("old" technology) seems to me that is better gas mileage than the WRX gets on the highway....so who's an economy car now

    Putting a gearbox in the rear is great, if for no other reason than nostalgia (70s, 80s and so on) -- I almost always applaud nostalgia, even if it's unintended. Plus, it's been proven in other cars to work as advertised, so I've no doubt GM got it right too. In the US the Corvette is not inexpensive, though it is and has almost always been a lot of performance for the money.
    Have you been living under a rock? the Corevette has used the rear mounted transmisson since the C5 was introduced in 1997, so since it has been running around for the last 7 years I would have to say GM has made it work as advertised! And compared to the Viper, or Porsche, or Fearri, or Lambo, or specialty auto makers the $50K Z06 holds it's own and then some....do some reasearch and you will find a great Motortrend magazine that had a huge section on all the above listed cars and there performance numbers. The Z competed and beat cars with pricetags almost 3-4times as much!!!

    As far as the list goes, I must be missing something about the focus, I see them everywhere, and it seems that all the reveiws are great...however the rental Focus ZX3 my GF had when she hit a deer was a TOTAL POS!!!!! I'm not that big of a guy(6'4" and 210lbs) and I fit nicely in a WRX or hell most import cars, but I felt like I was trying to cram myslef into a shoe box riding in that car, plus the ride quality reminded me of my Freinds High school car a 1990 Ford Escort....they probably compair very well?
    The rest of them I have no problem with,
    BMW 3 series are VERY VERY nice cars,
    S4 aluminum that has turned into steel sled is still one of my favorite cars...even though they dumped the 2.7LTT,
    Acura even though not up to the hype surronding it's arival is still a nice car,
    Honda accord is a really nice car, My GF and I test drove a few when she was looking for a new car.
    Honda S2000 is a great all around sports car, even though you have to keep the tach above 6K to see any performance.
    G35 is a BEAUTIFUL car....what else can I say?
    Even with all the HP problems, the RX-8 is still a very competative performance vehicle,
    Prius is only on there because of its Enviornmental presence, but I still think the Honda civic hybrid is a better option!

    Not that anyone should care about my $.02 but I figured I would throw it into the mix anyway!

  13. #12
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    Okay - time to elaborate on some of my thoughts

    Ford Focus - I'll grant it's one of the most advanced commuter cars that Ford makes. I won't grant that such a fact makes it 10 Best worthy. It's the best car of a bad lot. The 10 Best isn't about picking the best car from each major manufacturer. It's about picking the 10 best cars overall. I've driven a focus before and I can tell you that there are several other comparable cars I would love to have driven instead.

    As mentioned, reliability is not a factor for the 10 Best so this is a side note. The Focus may not have the same reputation for poor reliability in Europe as it has in the States. It seems to me that this could be because Europeans are used to shoddy reliability. I have a VW, and love BMW, Benz, Citroen, etc., but I have to admit that none of them are particularly reliable automobiles.

    Toyota Prius - Definitely a car that has set a standard for the world to follow. I just tend to think of the 10 Best as a list of cars that are the most fun to drive and best suited to their respective categories. I had placed the Prius in the economy car category and it just can't compete with several other cars in that segment when it comes to driving fun. I SHOULD have granted that there is a whole new category out there that includes cars like the Prius. I'll concede on the Prius.

    Everyone else is welcome to their own thoughts and opinions...

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    First of all, there are two cars I don't believe should be on the list- and that is: the TSX and the S2000. Both with Honda engines with agressive vtec.

    The TSX is a lame version of the RSX that weighs more. I don't know who though putting a tiny 8000rpm engine would make for a good commuter in a midsize.

    The s2000 is hardly remarkable. Yay so much horsepower per liter and it handles well but is WAY expensive for what you get. I'd probably rather have a Saab convertible.

    Why don't I like either of these cars? Simple, they suck as daily drivers. Do you want a daily driver that you have to rev to 5500 RPMS to hit the 2nd cam and get your powerband? How about a car that has 80 less ft.lbs of torque than HP?

    The TSX is rated at 200/145 or something like that. Not enough torque for that car- unless you want to drive it indy style. The S2000 is pushing like 240/160. I have heard that numerous drivers have complained about the low end torque so much so that Honda has made significant engine mods for 2004 for an extra 6 ft. lbs like 200 rpm sooner. Plus they are both FWD = not sports cars.

  15. #14
    Banned sarcasmo's Avatar
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    S2000 is RWD and is one of the best handling cars you can buy. Also, you can buy a new S2K for around 32,500 - try doing that with a new FWD Saab convertible.

    I'll grant the whole torque curve argument, but it should be noted that the S2K is very light and reaches the happy cam very quickly -thus making it fairly easy to drive the car fast. That's why the S2K can run 0-60 well under 6 seconds and slaughter stock rex's from a roll.

    S2K may not be as streetable as some cars out there, but in the uncomprimising, affordable sports car category it's alot of performance for the price. If anything, it makes the 10 best list just for it's shifter and transmission - one of the best I have ever had the pleasure of shifting.

    Still, I can see where you're coming from - just had to put up a bit of defense for the little Honda.

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    Registered User happasaiyan's Avatar
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    wow how i love when people look at a number and then make up a whole load of bs for the car. lets talk out of our @$$ a little more. have you ever driven either of the cars? no? ok then. they are very drivable. granted they dont have kick you back in the seat torque, they do have usable torque. their torque curves arent even really curves...theyre flat.

    I don't know who though putting a tiny 8000rpm engine would make for a good commuter in a midsize.
    hmmm...the engine is bigger than YOUR engine. so how does that make it tiny? just because it doesnt have a turbo? and the engine isnt an 8000rpm engine, fyi. the redline is at 7200 if memory serves.

    the s2000 is "way" expensive for what you get? youre getting a car comprable to the bimmer z3/z4, benz slk, porsche boxter / boxter s, but is WAY cheaper. its faster and handles just well if not better than all the aforementioned.

    and as sarcasmo said- the s2k is RWD.

    i own an STi. but i must give credit where credit is due. at least get educated before you start spewing out crap. thanks.
    '04 PSM STi - modded (sr50+the works)
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